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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! young 4 old pug's Avatar
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    Default options for more go in a 505gti

    Ive never gone into this area because its always been way over my head!!!!

    But now i am a 1st year apprentice motor mechanic ( get to work on PUGS, benz's, honda's, and hyundia"s ) and am gradually starting to understand a bit more about gaining performance from engines. its no use asking the other mechanics, as they all hate peugeots cause they are so hard and fidly, (take the current fuel filler neck on the 306's, there is no drain plug on the fuel tank, and all up it taked about an hour to change, and you smell of petrol for the rest of the day! anywaym back to the point). The car in question is a 505 gti series 1, an 84 model. Its currently got the 3 spd auto in it, but i'd like to put a manual in it. Any advice on getting more oomph out of it would be great. Hopefully by the end of this year, (when i get my 3rd pug, a 405mi16) i will be pulling the engine out at work, stripping it apart and rebuilding it......cant wait!

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    But yeahm any help'll be great
    thanks, kenny.

    Car(s) - Current:
    '84 505 GTi, '98 306 xt (its actually dads, but i have a fair bit to do with it...)
    Car(s) Owned - Previous:
    '85 50GTi

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! 604 tragic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by young 4 old pug
    Ive never gone into this area because its always been way over my head!!!!

    But now i am a 1st year apprentice motor mechanic ( get to work on PUGS, benz's, honda's, and hyundia"s ) and am gradually starting to understand a bit more about gaining performance from engines.

    The car in question is a 505 gti series 1, an 84 model. Its currently got the 3 spd auto in it, but i'd like to put a manual in it. Any advice on getting more oomph out of it would be great.

    But yeahm any help'll be great
    thanks, kenny.
    Some things never change - as your a 1st year apprentice, you'll have bugga all money - right?

    so my advice is to do a MegaSquirt conversion on the GTI to give you the extra oomph you want. Its the most cost effective upgrade and you will learn an incredible lot of usefull stuff along the way.
    As well, you will have a lot of old wise heads here on Aussiefrogs to advise & help. And the internet has heaps of relevant Megasquirt advice too.
    I reckon you could get a 15-20% increase without doing very much with the internals or spending a pile of money. Its a fairly easy first step before you get into the heavy duty stuff with full performance rebuilds.
    Check previous posts on Megasquirt, especially the GRAHAM WALLIS ones to see whats been done before.
    So many projects - so little time.

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Welcome to the forum!!

    Yes, a 5 speed manual will help with the performance profile of the car, compared with the 3 speed auto. Will not be the cheapest of conversions, but given your trade experience, you should only be paying for parts, I would think. Make sure the 5 speed box comes with a service history. Alternatively, strip and do the bearings, just in case it is a high km unit.

    The engines traditionally do very high km without the need for any internal repairs etc. I know of several that have past the 500,000 km and run as if they have done 100,000, with no oil consumption etc. Our '84 505 Executive at 404,000 km had over 200 psi per cylinder, and still had the hone marks visible in the cylinder bores. The head was removed simply because of an oil leak at the back lower corner of the head gasket.

    An '84 GTI engine will be the leaded version, which has a few more HP compared to the later unleaded units. Given this factor, a day spent tuning the engine, doing valve settings, ignition timing, plugs etc can be rewarding. Also, check all hoses, vacuum pipes etc for cracks, leaks, loose connections etc, as this plays havoc with the air flow sensor if not right.

    Run the engine on the top grade of fuel (Vortex, Optimax etc), and add 60ml of Flashlube to each tank of fuel. This is not strictly necessary from the point of view of preventing Valve Seat Recession, but has other related benefits.

    After a tank or two, re-check that the ignition timing is set at 8 degrees (+/- 2), but at least 8 degrees, and if happy, remove the vacuum delay valve between the throttle body and the distributor advance / retard capsule. Replace with a normal vacuum hose between those two points. Read my earlier post (& replies) re this issue.

    Also, if you have not done so, flush out the throttle body with carby cleaner (or similar) to ensure all the vacuum ports are free and clean.

    Any further work needed to improve performance could be sourced from this forum, or an overseas web site, where I know that some people have gone to the trouble of replacing the standard ECU with a re-mapped after market unit, along with some other minor work. Someone will know the web site address for sure.

    Cheers,
    Kim.

  4. #4
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Another contender for a set of extractors...

    I think this must be a big 'free power' option for the GTi and STi engines. Have a look at Dave McBean's posts on the subject and his website. It sounds like this would make the engine a much freer revver and give a few extra horsepower.

    Checking the manual box, if it's not been reconditioned in the last 150,000kms or so might also mean checking the primary gears... the input shaft gear and the gear that it drives on the cluster. Look very closely for any marks or signs of wearing through the case hardening.

    If you do check it and these look okay, just bolt it back together with new cluster shaft bearings front, centre and rear, and input shaft bearing and spigot bearing in the back of the input shaft. The other bearings will likely be okay.

    Frankly, I'd just put any box I bought into the car and try it before I pulled it apart, as unless you know it's crook it probably isn't. Stick 85-90 gear oil into it to protect those gears and worry about it if it starts making noises.

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Before I had my GTi motor turbo'd I had it reasonably worked and It went well for an engine of almost 20 years old. One thing not yet mentioned is the induction setup. I think that simplifying this part of the motor changed it's character quite noticably and it makes the whole engine bay better to work on/in. I removed all of the factory system forward of the throttle body and just ran a pipe with a pod filter to the front driver's side of the engine bay. With 4-2-1 extractors and a decent exhaust it was a joy to drive and had a really hard edged note to it. Your factory ECU won't run the car like this though, as the Air Flow Meter will have been removed so if you want to consider this option start doing your Megasquirt research, and look up all the Megasuirt info posted by Graham.
    Assuming that your engine is making close to factory power and torque and is in good condition internally, the 'run of the mill' breathing mods will give you an increase of maybe 10%.
    I'm guessing that you're going to give it a fair thrashing, so it would be a good idea to investigate the age and condition of the timing belt also.

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! young 4 old pug's Avatar
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    i work 2 jobs, the second one paying 3 times as much.....but getting taxted 3 times as much as well!... so im doing better than most....

    thanks for the info, i'll research the mega squirt stuff on friday night.

    im more of a Cruiser than a go-as-fast-as-i-can-all-the-time type driver, but i do like to push hard now and then or on nice steep twisty roads...


    thanks guys, keep it coming...

    kenny.

    Car(s) - Current:
    '84 505 GTi, '98 306 xt (its actually dads, but i have a fair bit to do with it...)
    Car(s) Owned - Previous:
    '85 50GTi

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by young 4 old pug
    im more of a Cruiser than a go-as-fast-as-i-can-all-the-time type driver, but i do like to push hard now and then or on nice steep twisty roads...
    Hear Hear.

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  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Kenny,
    If you want to go through with the basic mods, it will pay dividends to do as much research on the mods planned before you even pick up a spanner. Talk to reputable tuning shops and discuss your options and try to get an idea of costs associated with what you intend to do. I found that everything I did to my 505 ended up being a little bit more expensive than I had anticipated, although well worth the fun the car provided.
    The Megasquirt ECU is a cost effective tuning option, and will improve economy. As far as I know the GTi motor uses a Bosch injection setup with batch fired injectors, so if the Megasquirt setup is sequentially injected it will be an advantage.
    My car had a 2.25in exhaust, which I tink was actually too big with the extractors I was using. If you change it, go for a 2 inch mandrel bent system.
    Hopefully this will be street legal and breath a bit better than the standard system. If you get extractors made I would recommend no more than 1.5 inch primaries and 1.75 inch secondaries. This motor is not designed to rev super hard, so concentrate on increasing the torque and the torque spread, and you should have a fun car for not too much money.
    Keep us posted....

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    Before I had my GTi motor turbo'd I had it reasonably worked and It went well for an engine of almost 20 years old. One thing not yet mentioned is the induction setup. I think that simplifying this part of the motor changed it's character quite noticably and it makes the whole engine bay better to work on/in. I removed all of the factory system forward of the throttle body and just ran a pipe with a pod filter to the front driver's side of the engine bay. With 4-2-1 extractors and a decent exhaust it was a joy to drive and had a really hard edged note to it. Your factory ECU won't run the car like this though, as the Air Flow Meter will have been removed so if you want to consider this option start doing your Megasquirt research, and look up all the Megasuirt info posted by Graham.
    Assuming that your engine is making close to factory power and torque and is in good condition internally, the 'run of the mill' breathing mods will give you an increase of maybe 10%.
    I'm guessing that you're going to give it a fair thrashing, so it would be a good idea to investigate the age and condition of the timing belt also.

    Yes, the Megasquirt conversion worked very well. $200 landed for a kit of parts, if you have electonic experience you can assemble this yourself.
    You remove the AFM but need to change the Throttle Position Sensor to the potentiometer type and add an Air Temp Sensor plus an oxygen sensor ($100 for the aftermarket variety). I sourced the TPS and ATS from Pick a Part. The MAP sensor is included in the megasquirt kit.
    I removed and plugged up all of the EGR system and ran a 2 inch custom exhaust, hot dog at the front and 1 muffler at the rear.
    With this the car would rev to 7300 EASILY, nothing wrong with the exhaust manifold! My other standard GTI goes better than average but struggles to get to 6000.
    Also, the car was still pulling well at 2000 where my standard car dies below 3000.
    The engine is sitting idle at the moment but it may go into a 504 rally car soon.
    Graham

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    theres nothing wrong with the exhaust manifold???

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
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    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie
    theres nothing wrong with the exhaust manifold???
    Like I said it revved to 7300 no probllem at all.
    It looks very similar to the much sought after XN big bore manifold.
    Graham

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    I have to say that I'd agree with you there Graham. When I scrapped the factory manifold I had a very close look at it, and found that as far as cast manifolds go, it's probably one of the better ones. I don't think that it would offer much in the way of a restriction, if at all.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    i was under the impression they butchered it to fit with the stearing rack..??

    Beautiful then.. one less thing to do..

    So its all restructed under the Inlet side of things.. ?? Couldn't be easier then

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Oh... Mr Max


    Just how is that Turbo setup going??

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

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  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Default There is a dog in the vent!

    G'day Bowie. The turbo setup is going well, except for a few problems with the manifold cracking (see also: '505 turbo problems' thread). I'm in QLD at the moment so I dropped it off to have a new exhaust fitted (3in from the turbo back) and to have the manifold problems rectified.
    As I said earlier I really can't see all that much wrong with the standard manifold. If it was going to foul on the steering components then surely those cluey French engineers could have simply designed a different exhaust system to suit, rather than fabricate a new manifod.
    Also, I think that they are probably more than capable of flowing enough exhaust gas for most 'lightly modified' Pugs. I'm not sure if I agree with Ray's earlier comment that they'd free up the engine to promote higher or easier revving. Until you start making big power figures, I don't think it would be a hindrance. Obviously extractors would offer a power gain later on down the track, especially with a very heavily worked motor, but the way I understand this topic (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the more power the engine makes (regardless of exhaust setup) the more beneficial the extractors etc would be.
    One thing I would do If I still used it ( the factory setup) is to have all of the EGR fittings removed and the holes welded over. I think that this is actually illegal, but it does cost potentially cost power, and takes bugger all time to do.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    fair enough.. Cheers. .

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! young 4 old pug's Avatar
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    Yes, the Megasquirt conversion worked very well. $200 landed for a kit of parts, if you have electonic experience you can assemble this yourself.
    You remove the AFM but need to change the Throttle Position Sensor to the potentiometer type and add an Air Temp Sensor plus an oxygen sensor ($100 for the aftermarket variety). I sourced the TPS and ATS from Pick a Part. The MAP sensor is included in the megasquirt kit.
    I removed and plugged up all of the EGR system and ran a 2 inch custom exhaust, hot dog at the front and 1 muffler at the rear.
    With this the car would rev to 7300 EASILY, nothing wrong with the exhaust manifold! My other standard GTI goes better than average but struggles to get to 6000.
    Also, the car was still pulling well at 2000 where my standard car dies below 3000.
    The engine is sitting idle at the moment but it may go into a 504 rally car soon.
    Graham


    thanks guys,
    But what is a tps and a ats? i take it that the egr has something to do with the exhaust emissions and what the hell is a 'hot dog'????

    So you say around $300 plus the exhaust is all that the above cost??

    I'll be back online later on, but now i've got to have some fun with a gti6

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by young 4 old pug
    Yes, the Megasquirt conversion worked very well. $200 landed for a kit of parts, if you have electonic experience you can assemble this yourself.
    You remove the AFM but need to change the Throttle Position Sensor to the potentiometer type and add an Air Temp Sensor plus an oxygen sensor ($100 for the aftermarket variety). I sourced the TPS and ATS from Pick a Part. The MAP sensor is included in the megasquirt kit.
    I removed and plugged up all of the EGR system and ran a 2 inch custom exhaust, hot dog at the front and 1 muffler at the rear.
    With this the car would rev to 7300 EASILY, nothing wrong with the exhaust manifold! My other standard GTI goes better than average but struggles to get to 6000.
    Also, the car was still pulling well at 2000 where my standard car dies below 3000.
    The engine is sitting idle at the moment but it may go into a 504 rally car soon.
    Graham


    thanks guys,
    But what is a tps and a ats? i take it that the egr has something to do with the exhaust emissions and what the hell is a 'hot dog'????

    So you say around $300 plus the exhaust is all that the above cost??

    I'll be back online later on, but now i've got to have some fun with a gti6
    I mentioned those things earlier in the post, thought I'd abbreviate the second time! Hot Dog, just an expansion chamber.
    Graham

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Kenny,
    an ATS is an Air Temperature Sensor. The ECU (or 'computer') adjusts injector time based on various inputs from the engine (load, rpm, vacuum or pressure etc) and intake temperature to achieve an efficient air/fuel ratio. With colder temps the engine receives colder air which has greater density than warm or hot air, which means that the engine can be fed more fuel and hence, make more power.
    The EGR is the Exhaust Gas Recirculation. The theory behind this is (this is mentioned by Graham [I think] earlier in this thread) that the motor recirculates a portion of exhaust gas to reduce the vehicles' emissions. To identify the EGR system, just look at all of the metal pipig sitting atop your exhaust manifold. From memory these pipes will cross to the inlet side of the motor.
    A TPS is a Throttle Position Sensor. The TPS gives your ECU a reading indicating the position or 'angle' of the throttle butterfly. Essentially, it tells the ECU what your right foot is doing. The TPS on your 505 GTi is not suitable for any other ECU other than your factory setup as it's a 3 way switch (ie has only closed, half and full throttle readings). You need the potentiometer type as mentioned by Graham. This type of TPS gives a constant signal (ie ANY throttle position). I swapped mine for an EB Falcon TPS. It cost about $88 from memory. It only needs two pieces of aluminium either side of the throttle to secure it to (if you're not confident then pay someone who is!). It must be able to return to the exact same position every time or it will effect your ECU.
    Best of luck.
    Chris

  20. #20
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    Default Very useful!

    This is terrific!

    Just signed up, but I've had a 505 GTi for 18months now, they really are a terrific vehicle!

    What everyone is saying is terrific, but I was wondering if anyone has tried going deeper into the motor? I have a 350,000km STi motor sitting at home which will eventually be rebuilt, hopefully with some interesting parts bolted on.

    Has anyone tried cleaning up the inlet and outlet paths for the head? Or adding extra valve spring strength? Even a re ground camshaft? I'm not sure of the availability of all this stuff, but surely it would help, even with the standard L-jetronic system.

    My other query of everyone was the availability of bottom end parts. A lightened, balance flywheel, crankshaft would do wonders I'm sure (my motor seems to take a while to spin up and down again).

    And while we're at it, what about and oversize piston and sleeve set?

    Perhaps I'm being too greedy?

    If anyone has any ideas, I would love to hear them. It would be so nice to be able to blow commodores away with 2/3 as many cylinders!

    Look forward to some feedback, and thanks for what has already been posted!
    eatpeople04

    Now showing in:
    "Betty" 1997 Black 306 GTi6
    "Shaggy" 2001 Green Subaru Outback

    The Mrs. Has
    "Wags" 2006 Ash Grey 307 XSE Hdi Touring

    And for floating...
    "Korka" 1978 Red/Blue Ramsay Lynx with 327ci Chevy

    Previously:
    "Cliff the 505th" 1985 White 505 GTi
    "Clive the 505" 1983 Poo Gold? 505 STi RIP

  21. #21
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    Welcome to the AF forum!

    Is your '86 505 GTI fitted with the leaded or unleaded ZDJL engine? Some of the very early registered '86 S2 GTI's were fitted with the leaded engine, and had build dates around Oct '85 etc.

    The leaded GTI engine has a higher C/Ratio, slightly better cam profile and thus produces a few more HP. This could be worth checking first up, so that you at least have a starting point.

    After 300,000 km+, the engine does respond well to a complete clean out of the exhaust manifold, inlet plenum chamber and induction pipes. Also, a thorough cleaning of the throttle body (carburettor cleaner or similar) works well to restore airflow to clogged vacuum ports etc.

    You will note that the STI engine (ZDJK) has a bigger bore throttle body as well as longer induction pipes. This gives the engine better flexibility and low down torque compared with the GTI engine, but, by nature, it is not designed to be as freely revving (above 3000 RPM) as say the GTI engine.

    While you are in this mode, read my post in Technical & Performance re the removal of the vacuum delay valve fitted to the distributor capsule.

    Beyond this, I have not explored other performance modifications as mentioned in other replies to this topic. I agree with you that the GTI is a great road car with a chassis / brakes etc that easily cope with the current performance profile.

    Cheers,
    Kim.

  22. #22
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Just thinking about young 4 old pug's position appropo the 5-speed box...

    Kenny, do you ever get a customer come in with a very noisy 5-speed and then the boss hunts down a good one and replaces it for him?

    If so, this is your cue. Buy the damaged box (shouldn't cost you much, maybe $50 at the most) and then get any '75+ 4-speed 504 box (another $50 touch). Send both of them to me while you hunt the wreckers that supplied the box for your boss and get the pedals and master cylinder etc from the wreck it came from.

    I'll send you back a good 5-speed for a nominal sum, about $100 or so.

    This deal goes for anyone with a BA7/5 that's noisy.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by KIMDEB
    Is your '86 505 GTI fitted with the leaded or unleaded ZDJL engine? Some of the very early registered '86 S2 GTI's were fitted with the leaded engine, and had build dates around Oct '85 etc.

    The leaded GTI engine has a higher C/Ratio, slightly better cam profile and thus produces a few more HP. This could be worth checking first up, so that you at least have a starting point.
    My GTi is the leaded version, it has no Cat converter or restricted filler cap. This is very handy to know, as it means mine in nominally quicker than mums

    Quote Originally Posted by KIMDEB
    You will note that the STI engine (ZDJK) has a bigger bore throttle body as well as longer induction pipes. This gives the engine better flexibility and low down torque compared with the GTI engine, but, by nature, it is not designed to be as freely revving (above 3000 RPM) as say the GTI engine.
    This is very interesting, as I though the induction pathway was exactly the same! Well, I suppose that is good thing anyway if I decide to go for the Megasquirt conversion on the STi motor. Thanks very much Kim. I don't suppose you know if the exhause manifold is any different?

    I just hope the less free revving of the STi is a function of the injection and manifolds rather than the engine itself, as I was hoping the internals would be identical in case the GTi inadvertantly gains an external combustion engine.

    Another thing I thought of after my last post was the possibility of shortening the throw of the gear lever? I have had musings along the lines of extending the gear lever below the pivot point so I get more movement below for less above, but on reading the posts on quick shifts for 205GTis I have gathered that won't be hugely effective.

    Thanks once again Kim, and anyone else who can tell me all about my wonderful vehicle!
    eatpeople04

    Now showing in:
    "Betty" 1997 Black 306 GTi6
    "Shaggy" 2001 Green Subaru Outback

    The Mrs. Has
    "Wags" 2006 Ash Grey 307 XSE Hdi Touring

    And for floating...
    "Korka" 1978 Red/Blue Ramsay Lynx with 327ci Chevy

    Previously:
    "Cliff the 505th" 1985 White 505 GTi
    "Clive the 505" 1983 Poo Gold? 505 STi RIP

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    I just hope the less free revving of the STi is a function of the injection and manifolds rather than the engine itself,
    from guys whom have had success with mega squirt type applications, they tell us it is so..

    Just haveing the ability to rev purposfully past 4000rpm would turn the vechile in to something so much driveable.. and enjoyable..

    my tied STI seems to gain 0.5km/h for every 500revs past about 4500rpm.. lol

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
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    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

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  25. #25
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    [QUOTE=KIMDEB]
    You will note that the STI engine (ZDJK) has a bigger bore throttle body as well as longer induction pipes. QUOTE]

    Interestingly, with one each STi (ZDJK) and GTi (ZDJL) intake manifolds and exhaust manifolds sitting in front of me, there is no difference at all between them, EXCEPT for the way the manifolds are drilled to accept the injectors. Runners are the same length, it is effectively the same casting, except with different final machining of the injector ports. Throttle bodies and butterflies have the same diameter. Exhaust manifolds are completely identical.

    Unleaded STi and GTi engines ran an identical camshaft profile, identical compression ratio and identical ignition curve. The only difference was the fuel injection system.

    The only time any differences were introduced were in the unleaded versions and the non-Peugeot variants of the engine (Fuego, R20, R25 etc).
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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