306 gti6 Dyno charts vs different mufflers
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Default 306 gti6 Dyno charts vs different mufflers

    I wanted to find out once and for all what effect on power across the rev range, different muffler types have on my car, a 306 gti6. So with the help of the local friendly exhaust shop, I had a flange joint fitted on the pipe just behind the muffler for a small price and they lent me several mufflers to test out on a dyno! I assume the results are pretty applicable to other 2 lt NA motors.

    The first graph is power and torque with a reasonably quiet (but significantly louder than standard) reverse flow walker muffler. The shop was busy so they couldn't spare time to get the car back on the hoist to switch the other mufflers and do more runs.

    Instead of going back to the first shop later to test the other mufflers, I decided to book into another shop so a)I could test all 3 mufflers one after another, and b)could compare the results for the same reverse flow muffler between the two shops.

    The second graph shows power and air-fuel ratio. The lowest Blue line is the reverse flow muffler. It's not on the graph but power came out to 96kW (vs 98kW from the first shop, but same curve shape). The Green line is with the STANDARD OEM muffler, power 99kW. The Red line is with the Walker straight through muffler, also 99kW. Had a look inside the muffler and it was a well made perforated diagonal pipe with nothing sticking in the way of gas flow.

    Anyway, I was surprised to say the least that there was NO power difference between the standard muffler and the straight through. Before the run, my assumption was that at least at high revs the straight through would give better power. It doesn't. The straight through muffler is also much louder than the reverse flow muffler (which in turn is louder than the standard).

    I highly recommend the second dyno shop, Turbo tune. They did 4 power runs (two with the straight through muffler..first run, and fourth run..and both times identifical power curve) and changed mufflers 3 times for $100.

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    So it seems that peugeot have fitted a quiet but excellent flowing muffler, sufficient for the engine's requirements. Also, if you do feel the need to spend big $$$ in any of the 'performance mods' such as exhaust, intake etc, it's worth spending the extra small $ to see if it actually does make a difference or whether power has actually gone backwards.

    Comments welcome
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 306 gti6 Dyno charts vs different mufflers-dyno1.jpg   306 gti6 Dyno charts vs different mufflers-dyno2.jpg  
    Last edited by U Turn; 20th March 2005 at 02:30 PM.
    Take the long way home....

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Go on

    Ya gotta do it, go for the sik straight throught exhaust with a 5 inch tip! :hammer:
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts gti138's Avatar
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    Looks like you went to a lot of effort there Jude! When the muffler on the 206 falls apart (as I'm sure it will do in the future) I think i'll do something similar to you. Will also be a good opportunity to put the car over the dyno to check things out.

    I'm not that supprised to see that the standard muffler was as good as the "sports" one. However it would be interesting to try an aftermarket euro muffler, something like a Remus or even the Peugeot sports exhaust that's availible for my car - I think it's a Devil muffler as was fitted to the 206 GTi rallye that came out about a month after I got my car.
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    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    Excellent work Jude

    Whats up with the dive of torque in the first graph? Did you get an AF readout for this run?

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    Interesting!!
    How'd the walker straight thru sound ?
    was it loud ?
    David

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  6. #6
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Awesome thread Jude.

    Gee, that J4RS engine just doesn't have any torque down low at all! Thank goodness for the 6 speed box.



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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gti138
    I'm not that supprised to see that the standard muffler was as good as the "sports" one. However it would be interesting to try an aftermarket euro muffler, something like a Remus or even the Peugeot sports exhaust that's availible for my car - I think it's a Devil muffler as was fitted to the 206 GTi rallye that came out about a month after I got my car.
    Mike, it certainly would be interesting to see the results of something like a Remus, but I seriously doubt they'd lend me that! The thing is, the Walker straight through muffler I tried would flow at least as well as the remus or any other muffler. I had a very good look inside it with a torch. Inside was a perforated diagonal pipe (i.e runs across from one corner to the other corner for maximum length within the box) with the perforation holes stamped out from the inside (so there was no metal impacting into the gas flow) with 2.5" inlet and outlet with good welds. Without flow-benching it, can't say for certain, but I am almost certain that it would come close to flowing as well as a straight piece of pipe.

    Quote Originally Posted by macquered
    Whats up with the dive of torque in the first graph? Did you get an AF readout for this run?
    Brenno, I assume you're talking about the dip between 72 and 82 kph? I don't think it's all that significant, cos the torque scale is of a high resolution (i.e 600N blocks between the horizontal blue lines considering the high torque levels since the run was in 2nd gear) so any variation is amplified. If you were to do the same run in say 4th gear and then plot the graph with 1000N blocks, the curve would look flat as a tack due to the low resolution. But yeah with the reverse flow muffler there is that slight flat spot which you can see on both graphs. But with the oem muffler and the straight thru muffler, the flat spot virtually disappears.

    I have got an AFR plot as well. I'll have to photograph it tonight (I don't have a scanner so I'm actually taking digital photos of it )

    Quote Originally Posted by choiboi
    How'd the walker straight thru sound ?
    was it loud ?
    Suprisingly barely louder than standard during steady crusing with light throttle/no load. At idle can definitely hear it, quite loud. In too high a gear, throttle floored..sounded terrible..loud and shite. At high rpm was very loud but sounded like a WRC car! Highway cruising was loud as soon as I even saw a hill. I personally couldn't live with it.

    Linc, yeah I was very happy with the torque curve! Almost 90% of max torque 2500 rpm. Even the guys at BOTH the dyno shops were very impressed at seeing that from a NA 2 Lt motor. Even outright power they said they've only seen bigger numbers from similar sized NA engines on Hondas (highest being 120-something kW at the wheels from a very worked integra motor in a track CRX). The guys at the second shop were also saying that there's some simple cam and ecu mods that many of the honda guys do that slightly raises top end power but most importantly makes the torque curve flat, though fuel economy apparently goes down significantly. The first shop had a mazda3 2.3lt run just before I did, that made 88kW. I thought those things were meant to put out 120kW at the flywheel. Though the guy had some loud exhaust on it so he prolly lost power!?
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U Turn
    Brenno, I assume you're talking about the dip between 72 and 82 kph? I don't think it's all that significant, cos the torque scale is of a high resolution (i.e 600N blocks between the horizontal blue lines considering the high torque levels since the run was in 2nd gear) so any variation is amplified. If you were to do the same run in say 4th gear and then plot the graph with 1000N blocks, the curve would look flat as a tack due to the low resolution. But yeah with the reverse flow muffler there is that slight flat spot which you can see on both graphs. But with the oem muffler and the straight thru muffler, the flat spot virtually disappears.
    No I meant the dip after 114 km/h. Are you sure it was second? It looks like third.

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    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    I should throw my ST on a dyno one day... see what the VVT does down low... the Mazda 3 only puts out 115kw or something, it's a detuned version of the Mazda6 engine, so 88 sounds about right...
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  10. #10
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    all we need now is someone to do this with Pod filters & induction kits

    Nice werk...

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! Dr_Pug's Avatar
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    Interesting thread and alot of effort gone into it, to prove that changing the OEM muffler to a high performance muffler makes no difference on HP or torque on the 306 Gti.

    Excuse me if this is a nob question, does the 306 Gti come factory with performance extractors/headers? If not I wonder if this would of made a difference to torque and Hp.
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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Yes, GTi6 headers are a work of art and unique to the car.

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    1000+ Posts TroyO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackster
    Excuse me if this is a nob question, does the 306 Gti come factory with performance extractors/headers?
    Yes it does.

    Troy.

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    1000+ Posts TroyO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    Yes, GTi6 headers are a work of art and unique to the car.
    Except that they are on the Xsara VTS also.

    Troy.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macquered
    No I meant the dip after 114 km/h. Are you sure it was second? It looks like third.
    I didn't actually ask them but thought it was 2nd gear cos 110 kph is redline in 2nd and should be around where max power is produced (though I know specs say max power should be at 6500 rpm). Whereas if it was in 3rd gear, doesn't 110 or 114 kph work out to be under 6000 rpm which is a bit low??
    Take the long way home....

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  16. #16
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TroyO
    Except that they are on the Xsara VTS also.

    Troy.
    Yeah, that just cheapens the art
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    Awesome thread Jude.

    Gee, that J4RS engine just doesn't have any torque down low at all! Thank goodness for the 6 speed box.
    Don't know if i would have gone that far, but it's certainly very untidy. The low down torque in that plot is nothing like the way people seem to rave on this forum about the GTi6, infact, i think it's very disappointing. The past thread's i've read comments from people like yourself in, have raved about the torque from that engine, and it's just not fact. Now you actually have a dyno to look at and see it's just not fact, and most of the time you where talking out of your arse.

    I mean, you compare that to something like a stock 206GTi180, and you just have to wonder if the GTi6 is all you guys like to believe it is. Here's a dyno i got from some friends in the UK. The red line is before fitting of an ITG induction kit, and the green is after. The car is a 206GTi180, just to make it bleeding obvious.

    But hey, it's not like changing the induction on one of these cars will improve it's perfromance. I think you guys have already proved that with all of your 'expert' knowledge

    I think i proved my point in the other two threads, lincoln: you're an idiot. And Jastanis/Uturn/jude, you're absolutely no better. Always too quick, both of you, to jump up and down and say "wrong wrong wrong", when neither of you have a freakin' clue yourselves. Might be time to switch the crap to comming out of your arses rather than mouths, guys.
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    Last edited by Cleanup_754; 21st March 2005 at 06:50 PM.

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! WRCPUG's Avatar
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    all we need now is someone to do this with Pod filters & induction kits
    I had my car dynoed last year at a German Car Club Dyno day (now EUROCCA) at A.R.T.



    I have a Janspeed Backbox and i had a REALLY CRAPPY 3A pod filter...i have recently fitted a BMC CDA airbox so i hope that my torque curve has improved (which it feels it has)

    Yes, GTi6 headers are a work of art and unique to the car.
    I love these things..when i had the motor out of my car i took sum snaps they are some of the nicest stock headers i have seen on a car (barring high end Euro Supercars ect)

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  19. #19
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    I don't think there's any doubt that the GTi6 engine is very lumpy. That's one of the first things I noticed both with the ST and the 180. The delivery is significantly smoother in the new cars and is a testament to the newer technology in them.

    My "awesome" comment referred to sharing the results of Jude's experiment. Then having an open discussion about the results.

    My comments was merely taking the piss, which I'm sure you've picked up on, as I'm sure you've picked up off previous posts.
    Last edited by GTI124; 21st March 2005 at 05:15 PM.
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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleanup_754
    Here's a dyno i got from some friends in the UK.
    I wouldn't wipe my a*** with a UK dyno sheet. They do some very weird things over there with numbers.

    '92 205 Mi16
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  21. #21
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    I wouldn't wipe my a*** with one either, Peter, they print them on this horrible 100gsm paper, and it's just not rectally pleasent Seriously, i know these guys, and i know the engine work they do, so i have no reason to doubt their figures any more than any other dyno sheet i've ever seen. Also, if you do the calcs from BHP to kW on the before plot, you'll get a number around 103kW, which is roughly what i've seen as ATW figures for Australian 180's that have been dynoed. They also don't use any scaling factor, so it's about as honest a dyno as you're ever likely to see.

    Oh, are you going to the Wakefield super sprint this Saturday? I know it's a Lotus club only round, but thought you might be making an outing in Matt Boltons old 205GTi race car. I heard rumours you where a little disappointed it did not have the Peugeot Sport torsion bars up the rear... and i know it was running like a dog for a while.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    can i ask a question here

    that UK sheet..........

    is the 5hp noticable on the road at all ?

    i don't think i would feel the 5hp difference in my GTi-6
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  23. #23
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleanup_754

    Oh, are you going to the Wakefield super sprint this Saturday?
    No, not game to risk it. I'm saving the engine for Round 2 of the CSCA round. Wuillemins aren't entering, so there's a chance I'll pick up 10 points. I've sorted the maps out but the engine is rather rattlely. I'm hoping to fit the coilovers and bigger bars over Easter.

    5hp at the wheels is definetly noticeable.

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  24. #24
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Brenno, I just rang up both shops and yep you're spot on. The runs were conducted in 3rd gear. I guess I was just surprised that it made so close to peak power around 6000 rpm, and looking at the second graph can see it rises only ever so slightly to 6500 rpm.

    The big dip with the Walker reverse flow muffler occurs on both graphs, though on the second one it starts to rise again till redline. Not sure why the first graph power just continues down after the dip, maybe they stopped the throttle after it started to dip significantly? Not sure.
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleanup_754
    Don't know if i would have gone that far, but it's certainly very untidy. The low down torque in that plot is nothing like the way people seem to rave on this forum about the GTi6, infact, i think it's very disappointing. The past thread's i've read comments from people like yourself in, have raved about the torque from that engine, and it's just not fact. Now you actually have a dyno to look at and see it's just not fact, and most of the time you where talking out of your arse.

    I mean, you compare that to something like a stock 206GTi180, and you just have to wonder if the GTi6 is all you guys like to believe it is. Here's a dyno i got from some friends in the UK. The red line is before fitting of an ITG induction kit, and the green is after. The car is a 206GTi180, just to make it bleeding obvious.

    But hey, it's not like changing the induction on one of these cars will improve it's perfromance. I think you guys have already proved that with all of your 'expert' knowledge

    I think i proved my point in the other two threads, lincoln: you're an idiot. And Jastanis/Uturn/jude, you're absolutely no better. Always too quick, both of you, to jump up and down and say "wrong wrong wrong", when neither of you have a freakin' clue yourselves. Might be time to switch the crap to comming out of your arses rather than mouths, guys.
    First of all..dude, what's with the personal insults???? If this is how you react to a thread where you weren't even mentioned let alone targetted, you should seek professional help before you end up sitting on someone because they said instant coffee is best and you disagreed with it.

    Now, that torque curve is 'untidy'? How so? Are you sure you're looking at the correct graph? You do understand that the torque curve is only on the FIRST graph. The SECOND graph is actually the Air-Fuel Ratio and yes, I can understand how that may look 'untidy' if you mistook it for a torque curve But in case you were referring to the correct first graph (i.e the one with the worst performing walker reverse flow muffler), uhmm you do notice that the total variation in that curve is only 600N at 3000N between 51kph (2500rpm) and 114kph where peak power occurs. Simple math will tell you that's only a 20% variation. For a small disp. NA engine, that's pretty flat to me. Secondly, when the dyno guy was fiddling around with the scales, I saw when he put a lower resolution scale on the torque of 1000N between blue lines, and the torque looked flat as a tack. I however requested the higher resolution scale so I can see just how it dips and peaks and where. Instead of making the comment that it's untidy, please be more specific and point within which speed ranges you're talking about and why you think it's being 'untidy'. That would help others to understand what you think you mean.

    Anyway, I wasn't at all comparing this to a gti180, but if you feel you must bring it up, I'm sorry but that crappy graph that you posted which looked like something I could make up in Excel in 5 mins just doesn't cut it. I could post a graph that looks like that of my lawnmower making 300kW, does that count???? By the way, if you've seen Aus' gti180's dyno'd please feel free to constructively 'share the knowledge' and post the Dyno dynamics charts. However, one of these days a few of us will try and arrange a shootout mode with a good range of cars. My money will be on the clio 182 crapping all over both the gti6 and gti180 for both power and torque.
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

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