MI16 Supercharger Setup
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default MI16 Supercharger Setup

    Hi,
    i have an D6C / XU9J4 Engine which is gonna being Supercharged.
    Im not familiar with the strength of the Peugeot Engines, so my Question is:
    What kinda work do we have to get done on the Internals to hold about 300whp?
    I dont think the stock rods will withstand this kind of power right?
    So tell me where the limits are and what parts need to be replaced...
    Or just tell me another source of information...

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I don't think there are any major issues...

    Not as many as you're going to have:

    a) Fitting the thing in the engine bay, or...

    b) Getting the power to the ground.

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    David,

    I'm guessing but don't think it would hold together for long at 300bhp, at 240bhp it would be fine. 240 to 300 from a four of this displacment is a big jump in terms of shortening the life of your crank and other major connecting bits. And as the other fella pointed out fitting one is one major assignment. Have been looking at the same for my BX16V and gave it away as too much trouble for now.

    Chris.

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    i don't know if it is possible but maybe forged pistons with diesel rods,crank and block with petrol head

    at least the diesel bottom end is capable of a CR of 21.8:1
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    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by david_gm16
    Hi,

    What kinda work do we have to get done on the Internals to hold about 300whp?
    ...
    Are you asking for 300bhp, or 300whp.....whp to me would be 300bhp at the wheels, and I doubt the bottom end would support that sort of output standard, and come to think of it, even 300hp would be a stretch.

    I'd suggest, stronger main bearing caps, stronger conrods and much stronger big-end bolts, forged pistons. The diesel bottom end is a good suggestion.
    Oil cooler, with uprated oil pump, and possibly larger sump.

    Good luck, and yes space would be hassle I'd guess, lack thereof
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Best bet...

    Ask Owen Wuillemin. He knows these inside out and has pumped plenty of horsepower out of a NA version.

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    Fellow Frogger! JAG80's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    I don't think there are any major issues...

    Not as many as you're going to have:

    a) Fitting the thing in the engine bay, or...

    b) Getting the power to the ground.

    Removing the air conditioning compressor should provide space for a supercharger shouldn't it?
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    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by david_gm16
    Hi,
    i have an D6C / XU9J4 Engine which is gonna being Supercharged.
    Im not familiar with the strength of the Peugeot Engines, so my Question is:
    What kinda work do we have to get done on the Internals to hold about 300whp?
    I dont think the stock rods will withstand this kind of power right?
    So tell me where the limits are and what parts need to be replaced...
    Or just tell me another source of information...

    Hi david_gm16,

    Without putting a dampner on your idea, it's questionable whether the XU9 block will produce that sort of hp (300 at the wheels) without MAJOR (read-expensive) component replacement.

    By way of comparison, the 405/406 BTCC N/A engines were enlarged to 1998cc (86x86mm).They ran quad throttle-bodies, a staged 8 injector fuel system, had extensive head mods including porting, titanium valves, double valve springs and head machining for bigger buckets & cam lobes, (solid) lifters & HUUUGGE cams.

    The bottom ends used a forged crank, Peugeot Sport rods & forged pistons @ 13:1+ comp ratio. They were dry sumped and produced up to 340 (flywheel) hp in the hands of tuners like Richard Longman in the UK.

    Engine life depends on revs used (8200-9000rpm) -anywhere between 400-1500km between rebuilds.

    As for the drivetrain, I believe 220-230 may be the limit of the std. components. The BTCC cars ran either Hewland or X-Trak transmissions & adjustable ramp-up lsd's without problems.


    Good luck with the project...keep us informed of your progress.

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by pgti6
    .....As for the drivetrain, I believe 220-230 may be the limit of the std. components.....
    Better not tell Owen that!

  10. #10
    Tadpole
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    Okay lots of different opinions...
    I dont think it shouldn't be a big Problem for a well designed 1.9L Engine to reach the 300hp limit, whether on the wheels or at the crank might be a difference of 40hp.
    And yes... i know i have to rebuilt the whole engine and put in new Parts.

    Well thanks guys, some new ideas... I know need bearings, conrods, stronger bolts everywhere and pistons... and the right oil support

    I dont agree with pgti16, revs from 8200 to 9000 will last less then 2000km? suresure, so i had to rebuild my honda a hundred times by now...
    You wont get 340hp from a n/a 2L engine with 9000rpm.

    Ok one more question, does the XU9J4 Engine have that piston cooling with oil? (oil is being sprayed on the bottom of the pistons to cool them, dunno what its called in english)

  11. #11
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by david_gm16
    .....You wont get 340hp from a n/a 2L engine with 9000rpm.....
    ...and you probably won't need special rods, bigger bolts etc either. I would expect that kind of power would only come from a NA engine of that size with 11,000 rpm... or a poorly calibrated dyno.

    .....Ok one more question, does the XU9J4 Engine have that piston cooling with oil? (oil is being sprayed on the bottom of the pistons to cool them, dunno what its called in english)
    In English that might be called 'oil sprayed on the bottom of the pistons to cool them'...

    Like I said, you need to talk to Owen Wuillemin. I doubt that there's anyone on this forum with more hands-on experience with modifying these engines to put out high power.

    You won't get guesses from him.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Better not tell Owen that!
    I think he found the limit of the std. engine. He now has a hole in the side of the block.

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  13. #13
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Caused by oil surge, wasn't it?

    That's not the limit of the engine. Anyway, that comment was in reference to standard drivetrain components...

  14. #14
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Getting 300rwhp, or around 300kw at the engine, with a supercharger is totally different to getting the same power from NA. The NA gets power through revs while the supercharger relies on more torque and lower revs. With enough boost and engine internals aside you'll get what you need at 7,000rpm.
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    Do you have any ideas as to where you are going to bolt the brackets to support the supercharger too? Would you suggest bolting straight to the block? My mechanic in Brisbane is experimenting with supercharging either a 504 or a 404. I get confused with the early Peugeot models. What ever it is it a single overhead cam, 8 valve engine he wants to acheive 200-250hp. If it is a success I would look at doing to same to my Mi16. Put that Haltec to good use finally!

    Are you going to change the throttle bodies also?

  16. #16
    Cal
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    Just wondering which blower you intend to use to get that kind of power? Eaton M62 or bigger?

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    For what its worth:

    In Peugeot 205 "the story of a challenge" the tables summarising the outputs from the various stages tuning for different events/ levels of turbo boost states:

    205 T16 Finland 1984 1775 cc; CR 7:1; boost 5.8 lb/sq.in and 345 hp at 8,000 rpm

    205 T16 Corsica 1985 1775 cc; CR 7:1; boost 21.8 lb/sq.in and 424 hp at 7,500 rpm

    Wasn't the XU8T in the 205/405 T16 a diesel block? I couldn't find it in the book but seem to recall somewhere ...

    It even mentions that they used a Ferguson (of Tractor fame and Jensen Interceptor FF fame) four wheel drive set up experimenting with various differential set ups with adjustments based on the viscosity of oil used. They eventually settled on "2/3 split to the rear and 1/3 to the front."

    Interesting book if you ever get your hands on it

    Has everyone here seen the Mac's Peugeot site? I think he is Dutch. The guy has a 205 MI16 turbo 4x4 CTI conversion on the home page which looks a real hoot (as well as many others).

    There is also a turbo S16 205 conversion with amazing fabrication work - you've got to admire what this guy has done

    If not check it out:

    http://www.205gti.com/main_uk.htm
    Last edited by mbyok; 18th March 2005 at 05:05 PM.

  18. #18
    Tadpole
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    I've decided...
    I got an offer for Custom Pistons (costing around 200EUR each).
    Custom rods will go for about 120EUR each.
    All Bearings will also be streghtned.
    If this isnt enough, its not worth it.

    The Blower is a M62, which is rebuilt with the highest Quality Ball-Bearings available, so it could spin up to 40000rpm. Should be enough also.
    The room problem really is an issue, since its an 205 with the MI16 Conversion kit by Gutmann. (They did roughly 500 Conversions, new 205GTI + MI16 Engine with warranty)
    I got that car by chance for 2000EUR with just a broken distributor cap.

  19. #19
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by 405T16
    .....My mechanic in Brisbane is experimenting with supercharging either a 504 or a 404. I get confused with the early Peugeot models. What ever it is it a single overhead cam, 8 valve engine he wants to acheive 200-250hp.....
    The only one with SOHC 8-valve engine in the RWD cars is the 505 STi or GTi...

    504 and 404, and many 505s, have a pushrod engine.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by david_gm16
    You wont get 340hp from a n/a 2L engine with 9000rpm.
    The guys that raced over in the UK did get that amount of HP. And it was in a 405 Mi16. Read up on your history and then come back with your comments.

    I have looked into the same ideas as you when i had a BX16V (extactly the same motor) Its too much of a headache dude, just go out and buy a car that has already got 220hp standard and work it up from there, thats what i did. But if youre willing to pour copious amounts to time for reasearch and copious amounts of money into it then go for it! I sometimes wish i hadnt of spent $20,000 on a new car and thrown it all at the motor in my BX but then again since i got the new car i havent had a problem with it.

    best of luck, and please keep us updated on your progress!
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  21. #21
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    Default Use for such an creature?

    So, time and money as they say; what use could be made of such a thing?

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    My 205 made approx 250hp at the wheels with nitrous from my 8v engine. The bottom end had:

    forged 83.5mm Venolia pistons in Mi16 liners
    shotpeened and beam polished standard rods
    linished and knife edged crank

    It had no problems with standing this power. I see no reason why you couldn't make 300hp reliably provided you don't want to to rev it too hard (ie over 7500rpm) on a regular basis which you shouldn't have to do with the blower.

    You'll never know if you don't try.

    Good luck.

  23. #23
    Cal
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    Quote Originally Posted by david_gm16
    The Blower is a M62, which is rebuilt with the highest Quality Ball-Bearings available, so it could spin up to 40000rpm.
    Umm don't think so champ. The thing will have blown itself into many pieces 20000rpm before that.

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  24. #24
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I was thinking myself... "Why would you talk about 40,000rpm on a blower that will max out at 12,000?"

    Turbos and revs, yes, but not the normal superchargers. In the old days there were centrifugal ones, but they haven't been used since the 1.5-litre V16 BRM stopped wailing...

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by david_gm16
    Hi,
    i have an D6C / XU9J4 Engine which is gonna being Supercharged.
    Im not familiar with the strength of the Peugeot Engines, so my Question is:
    What kinda work do we have to get done on the Internals to hold about 300whp?
    I dont think the stock rods will withstand this kind of power right?
    So tell me where the limits are and what parts need to be replaced...
    Or just tell me another source of information...
    -why dont you buy a BMW, pugs are for cornering.
    205GTi Peugeot 1988 Graphite Grey for sale $2500

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