More power needed for 404
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default More power needed for 404

    I have just sold my beloved 203, so am consoling myself by dragging the 404 Coupe out of storage and getting it back in the road.

    The problem is I want more grunt. Originally it was fuel injected, but at present it has a carb. engine fitted.

    Am I better off to stick with the carb. engine, and what can I do to that to get more power?

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    Or do I spend a heap to get the fuel injection system back on it, and is there anything I can do there to get more go (apart from putting a 504 Ti in it, which I would rather not do to such an unusal car)?
    95 MI16
    71 404 U10 ute
    66 404 coupe
    55 203C (gently warmed) gone... sold...

  2. #2
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi 03
    Or do I spend a heap to get the fuel injection system back on it, and is there anything I can do there to get more go (apart from putting a 504 Ti in it, which I would rather not do to such an unusal car)?
    Get a late 504 or 505 XN1 bottom end and put a 404 head, sump and filter mount on it to make it look like a 404 engine.

    The reason I say late 504 (not sure what year, maybe 1979?)), is because earlier ones have a drain hole from the head which neads to be blocked to prevent leaks if you use the 404 head and gasket (unless you use an XC7 head and gasket). The hole is not hard to block, but it is an outward sign (apart from the engine number) that the motor is not a 404 motor (although, as I indicated XC7 404 motors do have the hole).

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
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    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default More power needed for 404

    Kiwi 03,
    Don't be concerned about the opinions of the local PPP's*. If you want to keep some semblance of originality plus power then from where I'm sitting the 2 litre 504 Ti is the way to go. A possible change of sump and parts availability? makes it sound attractive.

    *PPP's. Pedantic Purist Pests.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    Kiwi 03,
    Don't be concerned about the opinions of the local PPP's*. If you want to keep some semblance of originality plus power then from where I'm sitting the 2 litre 504 Ti is the way to go. A possible change of sump and parts availability? makes it sound attractive.

    *PPP's. Pedantic Purist Pests.
    How much do I need to change to put the 504Ti in? Would it be worth looking at using the 504 gearbox to get a floor change? Any hassles at the torque tube end?

    My main concern with running a 504 in it is that I will have possible eligibility hassles for some speed events I currently do in the 203.
    95 MI16
    71 404 U10 ute
    66 404 coupe
    55 203C (gently warmed) gone... sold...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by davemcbean
    Get a late 504 or 505 XN1 bottom end and put a 404 head, sump and filter mount on it to make it look like a 404 engine.

    The reason I say late 504 (not sure what year, maybe 1979?)), is because earlier ones have a drain hole from the head which neads to be blocked to prevent leaks if you use the 404 head and gasket (unless you use an XC7 head and gasket). The hole is not hard to block, but it is an outward sign (apart from the engine number) that the motor is not a 404 motor (although, as I indicated XC7 404 motors do have the hole).

    Dave
    So I could use the 504/04 block, complete with injecter pump, and run the 404head and manifolds etc? I imagine that late Ti engines are fairly thin on the ground here?

    Cheers

    Tony
    95 MI16
    71 404 U10 ute
    66 404 coupe
    55 203C (gently warmed) gone... sold...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi 03
    So I could use the 504/04 block, complete with injecter pump, and run the 404head and manifolds etc? I imagine that late Ti engines are fairly thin on the ground here?

    Cheers

    Tony
    You would have pretty high compression but should be OK on 98 octane.
    What happened, I thought you hated 404s?
    Graham

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    You would have pretty high compression but should be OK on 98 octane.
    What happened, I thought you hated 404s?
    Graham
    I do. They are horrible bloody things, but I havegot this one sitting in the shed and I thought I might try to amke a decent car out of it. If it was a sedan I wouldn't bother, but right hand drive coupes are worth persevering with - I won't find another one in a hurry.

    Cheers
    95 MI16
    71 404 U10 ute
    66 404 coupe
    55 203C (gently warmed) gone... sold...

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! jarrods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi 03
    I do. They are horrible bloody things, but I havegot this one sitting in the shed and I thought I might try to amke a decent car out of it. If it was a sedan I wouldn't bother, but right hand drive coupes are worth persevering with - I won't find another one in a hurry.

    Cheers
    Given the rarity of one of these wouldn't it be worth preserving the originality and sticking with the standard engine and drivetrain. If you want some more power maybe a warmed 404 injection might be the go. Definately don't go hacking the floor for a floorshift. 404 coupes and cabs are one of the few pugs you can spend the money required on a good restoration and get it all back and then some when you sell it. (but only if it's original)

    Jarrod

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default More power to the 404.

    My question is. Can the 1600 404 head be fitted on the "open block" 504?

    My reason for asking,[not telling] is that one of our Club members attempted to replace the head on his 404 1800 XM7, with a head from a 1600 404.
    It resulted in coolant leaks. Only when the correct XM7 head was fitted all was OK. The 1800 XM7 having an "open block".
    As all will know the head gaskets are different, this is pointed out in most good manuals.
    Other things possibly would affect the fitting but I will leave it there.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    My question is. Can the 1600 404 head be fitted on the "open block" 504?

    My reason for asking,[not telling] is that one of our Club members attempted to replace the head on his 404 1800 XM7, with a head from a 1600 404.
    It resulted in coolant leaks. Only when the correct XM7 head was fitted all was OK. The 1800 XM7 having an "open block".
    As all will know the head gaskets are different, this is pointed out in most good manuals.
    Other things possibly would affect the fitting but I will leave it there.
    Yes, need to use the 2 litre gasket of course.
    Graham

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default Power to the 404

    Graham,
    Re the gaskets. With the bore of the 404 at 85mm and the 504 at 88mm wouldn't there be a misalignment of the water passages in particular the ones close to the combustion chambers?

    I suppose the question to be asked is. "Has the fitting of a 404 head to a 2 litre 504 engine been done and how successful was it?

    Kiwi 03. Another option could be to get hold of an 1800 engine from an early '68 to '71 504. They still had the single throat Solex and apart from an alternator and spin off oil filter, would appear original. Oh, if you are going for a floor change get hold of a 504 box and the shift mechanism from a wagon, they have a long lever giving it a more classic look.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    Graham,
    Re the gaskets. With the bore of the 404 at 85mm and the 504 at 88mm wouldn't there be a misalignment of the water passages in particular the ones close to the combustion chambers?

    I suppose the question to be asked is. "Has the fitting of a 404 head to a 2 litre 504 engine been done and how successful was it?

    Kiwi 03. Another option could be to get hold of an 1800 engine from an early '68 to '71 504. They still had the single throat Solex and apart from an alternator and spin off oil filter, would appear original. Oh, if you are going for a floor change get hold of a 504 box and the shift mechanism from a wagon, they have a long lever giving it a more classic look.
    Yes, it has been done, but as Dave McBean says you may have to block the hole in the side of the block.
    Late 404s, ie just about all of the remaining ones,use alternator and spin on on filter. You can tell the difference, however, in the 1.8 the inlet pipe is connected to the head by four bolts, not three.
    Graham

  13. #13
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Kiwi 03,

    I've just realised that you're in Christchurch also. Maybe we should meet up sometime? I've only just moved here and I'm keen to meet local Pug enthusiasts of the rear wheel drive kind.

    Do you know who owns the nice blue 404 sedan I've seen driving around town?

    Dave
    Last edited by davemcbean; 1st March 2005 at 02:39 PM.
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Quote Originally Posted by davemcbean
    Kiwi 03,

    I've just realised that you're in Christchurch also. Maybe we should meet up sometime? I've only just moved here and I'm keen to meet local Pug enthusiasts of the rear wheel drive kind.

    Do you know who owns the nice blue 404 sedan I've seen driving around town?

    Dave
    Hi Dave

    I have seen that 404 as well. It looks good, but I don't know who it belongs to.

    It would be great to catch up. Ring me at home 337 2868 or work 355 1689

    Cheers

    Tony
    95 MI16
    71 404 U10 ute
    66 404 coupe
    55 203C (gently warmed) gone... sold...

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarrods
    Given the rarity of one of these wouldn't it be worth preserving the originality and sticking with the standard engine and drivetrain. If you want some more power maybe a warmed 404 injection might be the go. Definately don't go hacking the floor for a floorshift. 404 coupes and cabs are one of the few pugs you can spend the money required on a good restoration and get it all back and then some when you sell it. (but only if it's original)

    Jarrod
    If there is scope to warm up the original injected engine, that is what I would I would like, if someone can point me in the right direction.

    With regard to the floor shift, it was actually an option on the 404C

    Cheers

    Tony
    95 MI16
    71 404 U10 ute
    66 404 coupe
    55 203C (gently warmed) gone... sold...

  16. #16
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    a nice PRV6 in that coupe would make it go like a coupe should
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    a nice PRV6 in that coupe would make it go like a coupe should
    Great idea but... the beaurocratic nightmare involved in getting the car certified for a conversion like that to be able to use legally on the road here would be more hassle that I could be bothered with.

    hence, what to I do to improve the existing boat anchor in it?
    95 MI16
    71 404 U10 ute
    66 404 coupe
    55 203C (gently warmed) gone... sold...

  18. #18
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    While I would disagree with cutting the floor to make a floorchange (unless it was identical to the original style), what does it matter how 'unoriginal' the engine looks if it's not fuel injected?

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default More power to the 404's inlet elbow.

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    Yes, it has been done, but as Dave McBean says you may have to block the hole in the side of the block.
    Late 404s, ie just about all of the remaining ones,use alternator and spin on on filter. You can tell the difference, however, in the 1.8 the inlet pipe is connected to the head by four bolts, not three.
    Graham
    Graham,
    I wouldn't be too concerned about the four bolt inlet pipe. A new head I bought for my '69 404 some years ago had this feature. The original was the three bolt type.

  20. #20
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I think there's provision on the late 404 head for the four bolts, and I think some very late 404s had the four bolts.

  21. #21
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    Icon5 how does the 2 litre with 404 head perform/ rev

    Considering the option proposed by dave McBean..504 2 litre engine with a 1618cc 404 head......sounds very interesting.. One would imagine improved torque, but how does this combination work in practice ...has anyone experienced this combo ... e g how does it rev?
    What other non visible mods would be worthwhile?

  22. #22
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Have you thought about whether or not you should do something with the camshaft?

    Matching the small carby with the larger cylinders might call for a bit of thought in that department...

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond G
    Have you thought about whether or not you should do something with the camshaft?

    Matching the small carby with the larger cylinders might call for a bit of thought in that department...
    Make it a bit milder perhaps?
    Graham

  24. #24
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    But maybe with plenty of lift? Wonder if that's feasible?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    But maybe with plenty of lift? Wonder if that's feasible?
    I'm thinking of building a motor like this for a 404 I'm putting together at the moment and was considering a cam from a 505 GR.
    Graham

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