koni coilover findings
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
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    Default koni coilover findings

    i was out at koni t he other day and thought id price getting my yellow adjustables made into coil overs so i can fddle even more[whoo hoo].
    now this can be don e at the price of about $18oo for both sides at front.
    unfortunatly i was advised against it by marco at koni unless it was purely for the track.
    you cant use standard springs as the spring seat is a lot smaller so you have to go with a smaller diameter but more windings spring.aparently it jusy far too stiff for the road and takes alot of everyday drivability out in return for a very stiff ride which although fine for track work is not fine for road driving.oh well i thought i may have height adjustment at whim but its too pricy and not very applicable for my uses but if anyone else with a track car wants to look into it go for it-BAZZ

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazgti
    at the price of about $18oo for both sides at front.
    Is that $1800 ?????

    Parry was talking to Noltec the other day about the same thing. They were unsure whether it could be done to Konis. They do coil over kits for insert type struts. Are you saying it can be done, but the ride will be very stiff?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  3. #3
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I'm sure it could be done, but I think $1800 is way too much to pay for it!

    You would have to do something tricky like making them sit on top of the existing spring base and tack weld them with a MIG to the existing spring base while holding them so the oil inside is away from that section... and, of course, give them a a quick dousing to cool them.

    As for spring diameter, that would only be determined by what size you make the screw-up bases. Same goes for spring rate, you can have whatever you want. Though if you want plenty of pre-load you might be in strife.

  4. #4
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Whoops, I was off on a tangent there thinking they were gas-filled.

    Of course they're not, so they can readily be dismantled and the original spring base removed. This will give a much wider range through which you can work with springs and pre-loads.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts parry's Avatar
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    That price must be $180, no way its $1800. The guy I spoke to Noltec did not recommend doing the work if it is for track as it could weaken the strut considerably, also he mentioned the Konis are not designed for race spring rates and cannot operate correctly unless they are revalved.

    But then again I was at the motorsport expo on the weekend in melbourne and I did see a shock absorber worth $17,000USD. And that is each by the way.

    Why the cost? Its weight was a huge 110grams, off a 2004 McLaren.

    I convinced the guy to give me a catalog that comes with CD that helps you design your shock absorber and then order it online
    90 205 Gti Cherry Red(Track Car)
    2009 207gti
    1985 505gti (Shitbox Rally) Sold

    PBs:

    Oran Park: 1:27:9
    Wakefield: 1:05.6 (July 2015)
    Eastern Creek: 1:54 (8v) 1:48 (16V)
    Mt Huntley: 34.44 (2004 stock 205)
    Ringwood: 35.06 (30/10/2005)
    Winton: 1:33.6 (2017)

  6. #6
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Not a problem at all for competition use!

    Proven Products will supply and fit the screw spring bases for 'about $250 a pair plus parts and labour'... sounds like about $350 to me, and they'll make them with 2.5" or larger ID springs to request.

    Of course, there are Spax units that are made with these spring bases for the 205 GTi.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    what I dont get is why they "recommend" that koni shocks cannot handle coilover setups. Its just a different way of mounting a spring. nothing else. If you buy the same rated coilover spring nothing changes but the type of the spring. The shock still operates the same way.


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    1300cc's of jap buzzbox delivered the times below.

    EC 1:54.6 , Wakefield 1:13.15 , OP (short) 52.00 , OP GP 1:24.40


  8. #8
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    The way Bazz describes it, their statements were to the effect that the springs would be much stiffer.

    This could well be the reason they are saying the dampers won't be up to the job.

    But the reality is that you can make springs of virtually any rate in any size, and there would never be so much variation that the Konis, with their adjustability, couldn't cope with them.

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    The way Bazz describes it, their statements were to the effect that the springs would be much stiffer.

    This could well be the reason they are saying the dampers won't be up to the job.

    But the reality is that you can make springs of virtually any rate in any size, and there would never be so much variation that the Konis, with their adjustability, couldn't cope with them.
    aha. but Bazz didnt say that. The way I read it Bazz wanted coilovers made from his current struts (quite do-able) so he could then experiment with his suspension setup easier.
    .
    1300cc's of jap buzzbox delivered the times below.

    EC 1:54.6 , Wakefield 1:13.15 , OP (short) 52.00 , OP GP 1:24.40


  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    This is what Bazz said...

    Originally posted by bazgti
    .....you cant use standard springs as the spring seat is a lot smaller so you have to go with a smaller diameter but more windings spring.aparently it jusy far too stiff for the road.....
    Now I'll give you a tip...

    With a little effort, the original spring base can be made to fit the adjusting nuts and the original size of springs can be used.

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tekkie
    aha. but Bazz didnt say that. The way I read it Bazz wanted coilovers made from his current struts (quite do-able) so he could then experiment with his suspension setup easier.

    quite correct.this price was $1800.
    this consisted of new springs new ,spring seat[alot smaller in diameter]and also the welded on bottom bracket to accom the sleeve with thread ,same with top[i think].and also labour and more parts that i didnt remember.also sleeves to adjust height ect.a bit of stuff really.
    now the guy didnt say it wont work but will TOTALLY change the cars setup and ots not always recomended for road driving although track driving is recomeneded.
    now he also said that toe in would be drastically changed along with positive[or neg i cant
    remember]camber.you will need to do some research and find a good racing/rally specialist to set it up properly.
    now i must admit i got a bit lost on some od the technicalities so forgive me if some of this dont make sense or is plain wrong.im sure someone will correct my terminology or tech mistakes.ha ha ha ha.
    now they didnt say the koni's cant handle the coilover setup but its not recomeneded for street use unless you like teeth chattering suspension.

    peter t -yes they can be done but with very stiff suspension and changed toe-in and camber,but that may be a good thing for track.-BAZZ

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    I think the "specialist" was getting confused with the visions of full race setup in his head and what the customer was asking.

    changing the stock spring seats to coilover setup does not change geometry if the measurements are done correctly prior to fitting the tubes and same rated spring is used. The thing will attach to the same strut tower hat, and lower strut still attaches to the same point on the arm. Not sure where the camber caster and toe change would come from.
    To achieve those changes strut top adjustable plates are needed. Coilover springs are installed in most cases to accomodate the movement needed withing the strut towers as they have smaller diameter.

    I would suggest talking to Heasmans Suspension in Sydney and asking them for corresponding company they can recommend in Melbourne.
    .
    1300cc's of jap buzzbox delivered the times below.

    EC 1:54.6 , Wakefield 1:13.15 , OP (short) 52.00 , OP GP 1:24.40


  13. #13
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I thought it might be to give ride height adjustability...

    He's way off beam, anyway, as tekkie says. Sounds like PP do a fair job at a reasonable price to me.

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    I thought it might be to give ride height adjustability...

    He's way off beam, anyway, as tekkie says. Sounds like PP do a fair job at a reasonable price to me.

    your right ray,thats what the initail idea was ,so i could adjust the height myself if i wanted to.he said the main cost is because they cant use the original spring seat from the konis to make it adjustable and with the products THEY have would be some considerable cost due to not being able to use existing springs and the fact that the products are raceing products with light material etc,low product runs etc.
    now if you really want to go further with your enquieries on this ring MARCO AT TOP PERFORMANCE IN VERMONT and he will gladly answer your questions.
    now this applies to the 205 gti and the products they have to make a coilover setup.im sure cheaper parts can be sourced but i just enquired about the coilovers because i was told it could be done and was interested in pricing it.-bazz

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts parry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazgti
    your right ray,thats what the initail idea was ,so i could adjust the height myself if i wanted to.he said the main cost is because they cant use the original spring seat from the konis to make it adjustable and with the products THEY have would be some considerable cost due to not being able to use existing springs and the fact that the products are raceing products with light material etc,low product runs etc.
    now if you really want to go further with your enquieries on this ring MARCO AT TOP PERFORMANCE IN VERMONT and he will gladly answer your questions.
    now this applies to the 205 gti and the products they have to make a coilover setup.im sure cheaper parts can be sourced but i just enquired about the coilovers because i was told it could be done and was interested in pricing it.-bazz
    My contact in the UK can provide me with GAZ coilovers with rose jointed top mounts for 495pounds, oe with standard top mounts 395pounds. He can also do beilstein or AVO coilovers but their price is 3 times as much as the GAZ ones.

    I have done some reading on the GAZ stuff and it seems the best of the budget coilovers.
    90 205 Gti Cherry Red(Track Car)
    2009 207gti
    1985 505gti (Shitbox Rally) Sold

    PBs:

    Oran Park: 1:27:9
    Wakefield: 1:05.6 (July 2015)
    Eastern Creek: 1:54 (8v) 1:48 (16V)
    Mt Huntley: 34.44 (2004 stock 205)
    Ringwood: 35.06 (30/10/2005)
    Winton: 1:33.6 (2017)

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Sounds like you're still on the strut route Parry! You should come and have a drive of my new car before I put the 23mm bars in. You'll be amazed how rigid it is with 19mm bars and a full cage.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts parry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    Sounds like you're still on the strut route Parry! You should come and have a drive of my new car before I put the 23mm bars in. You'll be amazed how rigid it is with 19mm bars and a full cage.
    let me know what night I can come over, need to drop a few things off and pick stuff as well.

    Im not working Monday or Tuesday so that would be best.
    90 205 Gti Cherry Red(Track Car)
    2009 207gti
    1985 505gti (Shitbox Rally) Sold

    PBs:

    Oran Park: 1:27:9
    Wakefield: 1:05.6 (July 2015)
    Eastern Creek: 1:54 (8v) 1:48 (16V)
    Mt Huntley: 34.44 (2004 stock 205)
    Ringwood: 35.06 (30/10/2005)
    Winton: 1:33.6 (2017)

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    either Mon or Tue suits fine.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! briz205's Avatar
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    I brought from the uk spax coilovers and rear dampers for 450pounds. Tho I now official hate customs! They slugged me 400bucks!

    Nick
    Auckland NZ -
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  20. #20
    Tadpole
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    The Koni website in france has a complete on-line catolog that details many more products than any other Koni website. Two front coil-over koni's for my Renault Master Van are now headed for Perth for under $4oo australian. Since they can be changed by viscosity of oil or valved, perhaps they could suit different applications as well?

    Ta dpole

  21. #21
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Changing the viscosity of the oil in Konis is not recommended... not only does it only give you a change in performance in limited circumstances, it could potential damage the valving in some circumstances.

    As for other applications, all of this thread is about struts, so they pretty much aren't interchangeable.

    I will price the Spax units some time.

  22. #22
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    I thought the AVO's were considered a budget coil over as well, the are listed on their website (www.avouk.com) for a 205 as 400 pounds for two front coil overs and two adjustable rears, which works out to roughly $1000 - $1100, which depending on postage seems a good deal. I know a few people who have used Spax and they are an excellent shock, Briz205 let us know how you get along with them On the 205 Gti drivers forum a number of people use the GAZ shocks which have been purchased through Shenpar and they rave about them.
    05' Megane 225 Cup

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugsy
    which works out to roughly $1000 - $1100, which depending on postage seems a good deal.
    anything approaching this figure will attract the needy hand of the customs tax collection agency. Be prepared for Stamp duty.
    .
    1300cc's of jap buzzbox delivered the times below.

    EC 1:54.6 , Wakefield 1:13.15 , OP (short) 52.00 , OP GP 1:24.40


  24. #24
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I'm still waiting on the price...

  25. #25
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Spax coilover fronts for the 205GTi... adjustable damping, adjustable spring base... my price to you is $1510 the pair delivered.

    Springs to suit... my price to you is $180 the pair... so coilover shocks with springs is $1690 the pair delivered.

    Buy the whole kit, so you get the above plus the rear adjustable Spax shocks as well... $1700 delivered. That's a saving of $720 on the retail price.

    But... they don't carry stock. I'm sure delivery to them would be immediate upon the placement of an order, but there's the usual seven to ten weeks for shipping. And I would need to lodge a substantial deposit, probably about $800, before they would order them in.

    I think that will beat the socks off any deal you can do buying them direct, shipping them yourself, then paying the bills on arrival.

    I might try to get pictures of the units...

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