turbo or supercharge mi16 ?
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Tiop's Avatar
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    Icon4 turbo or supercharge mi16 ?

    what are the benifits of each i know that basically supercharger takes some power away from the engine and a turbo is driven by waste, what do you think would best suit a 2l mi16 ? supercharger give it better low down pull ? turbo more top end ?

    any ideas bout cost of doing these mods ? turbo setup start from bout $5k dont know how good a job i would imagine just one that works

    what would you prefer ? i think a turbo but i would love the sound of a supercharger. what do quad throttle bodies sound like compared to turbo and supercharged cars ?

    supercharger would be pretty trick and different

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    Fellow Frogger! WRCPUG's Avatar
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    Supercharger would sound better but Turbo is a better option.

    The S/C may give u too much low rpm torque in which u will just wheelspin. The turbos top end rush and the fact that it will pull till redline (if sized correctly) would be better suited.

    S/C would be great but only to a certain HP amount...if u are after a bolt on system with no internal work and a 50HP+ gain then a S/C would be the way to go. (the Toyota S/C can be sourced cheaply too)

    If you are after a bit more id go the turbo route
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I think it would be a great way to sink literally thousands & thousands of $$$$ into an old 405. If it's anything like a BX all you would end up with is bucket loads of wheelspin.

    The car isn't made with the extra power in mind so you would probably end up blowing gearboxs, diffs, driveshafts etc, etc, etc... (that's if you managed to get the motor running reliably). You can't just bolt a turbo on, even once the motor is built to withstand the added power of a turbo, you still need to fuel it, cater for knock (knock senders) which means aftermarket ignitions and ECU's .... Which in turn will require big bux on rolling roads and dyno's to get it setup ok.

    If it all came together you would then have a 405 with barely any resale value even though you had spent a fortune on it

    Do poogeo do an equivelant of the Xantia CT turbo Activa. It would be MUCH easier to increase the boost/output of a factory turbo car with devices like this:

    http://www.dawesdevices.com/

    You would still need to use a lot of common sense and be careful with fueling, but I'd see it costing MUCH less in the long run, and you would have a saleable car when finished.

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    PS: Not trying to put you off, but I know if I personally tried a project like this I'd end up with it never finished and me out of pocket hugely. Just look at the turbo'd 306 that was on here recently.
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    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    If you are keen as i would try and source a T16 Motor out of the 405 T16. They are hard to find but im sure if you rang around for a few weeks over seas you would be able to get your hands on one. It would cost a little to get out here but being a turbo from start its a much better motor for it. 200hp and 220 on over boost. Not to bad ide say.

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    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiop

    any ideas bout cost of doing these mods ? turbo setup start from bout $5k dont know how good a job i would imagine just one that works

    what would you prefer ?
    $$10k++, honestly you would end up with a bastard of a car tha would be not much faster than a stock 200SX, a properly modded 200Sx will blow you into the weeds, both in the twisted and straight bits.
    ... ptui!

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Default Turbo Mi16?

    I'd hang the expense and do it. Check out some brit websites first though, they get big numbers (230hp plus) from the XU9J4 on standard internals without forced induction. They could supply cams, larger valves etc. and there's something quite exciting about a pug with an 8500rpm redline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    I'd hang the expense and do it. Check out some brit websites first though, they get big numbers (230hp plus) from the XU9J4 on standard internals without forced induction. They could supply cams, larger valves etc. and there's something quite exciting about a pug with an 8500rpm redline.

    We get the similar in Australia [email protected]

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    $$10k++, honestly you would end up with a bastard of a car tha would be not much faster than a stock 200SX, a properly modded 200Sx will blow you into the weeds, both in the twisted and straight bits
    Not neccesarily.
    I have alot of friends who have turbo converted civics, lancers and the like. A bolt on kit with low boost (say 6psi) a piggyback comp and say a 2nd Hand Evo cooler will do the job nicely. Go source some slightly bigger injectors and you have yourself a simple but effective turbo setup.

    A friend just turboed his 1.6 Civic..its only the crappy SOHC model making 90kw. He got a HKS kit (TD04) turbo for $3K. Then cooler, exhaust,piggyback comp cost a further $2K. His car now makes about 100front wheel kilowatts. Not crazy power but the car goes alot better now.

    Another friend had a EK civic B16. Running 7psi on an unopened motor he ran a 13.8 on street tyres.

    Its not hard to turbo a car...just common sense and go hunting for 2nd hand parts turbos injectors ect. Your biggest headache will be manufacturig a manifold.

    If you want to do internal work to the motor then thats where the big $$$ comes in.

    If u are concerened about wheelspin get a Quaife LSD.
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    DoubleChevron seems to have offered the most constuctive and reasonable reply, to which I would add : if you want a car with more grunt, mumbo, power and torque, why not just get a more powerful car in the first place?

    The price of the T16 engine alone would exceed the value of 90% of Mi16s still on the road. Consider why anyone would get an Mi16 in the first place. There are any number of more suitable cars with more power but retaining a degree of 'chuckaroundability'.

    By the time you factor in your time and the inherent unreliability that such a conversion would bring, could it ever be worth it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WRCPUG
    Your biggest headache will be manufacturig a manifold.
    Not to mention a place to put it. It's pretty tight back there on an Mi16.

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    Fellow Frogger! Tiop's Avatar
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    hmm i know lots of other cars are better for turbo set ups but they aint pugs are they ? or are they

    i want something different something that is a bit unique but with some go maybe a bit of a sleeper
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    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WRCPUG
    Not neccesarily.
    I have alot of friends who have turbo converted civics, lancers and the like. A bolt on kit with low boost (say 6psi) a piggyback comp and say a 2nd Hand Evo cooler will do the job nicely. Go source some slightly bigger injectors and you have yourself a simple but effective turbo setup.

    A friend just turboed his 1.6 Civic..its only the crappy SOHC model making 90kw. He got a HKS kit (TD04) turbo for $3K. Then cooler, exhaust,piggyback comp cost a further $2K. His car now makes about 100front wheel kilowatts. Not crazy power but the car goes alot better now.

    Another friend had a EK civic B16. Running 7psi on an unopened motor he ran a 13.8 on street tyres.

    Its not hard to turbo a car...just common sense and go hunting for 2nd hand parts turbos injectors ect. Your biggest headache will be manufacturig a manifold.

    If you want to do internal work to the motor then thats where the big $$$ comes in.

    If u are concerened about wheelspin get a Quaife LSD.
    ... and similarly modded 200sx will still blow it into the weeds.-Chris
    ... ptui!

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    and similarly modded 200sx will still blow it into the weeds.-Chris
    Yeah no doubt. I used to love jap cars but im really over them they are everywhere.

    Id love to see a turbo Mi16 and see it frighten quite a few Skyline drivers

    My main concern with turboing a Mi16 is that its an old car and reliability and such will become an issue.
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    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WRCPUG
    Yeah no doubt. I used to love jap cars but im really over them they are everywhere.

    Id love to see a turbo Mi16 and see it frighten quite a few Skyline drivers

    My main concern with turboing a Mi16 is that its an old car and reliability and such will become an issue.
    True,... but I'm over the amount of people we get asking without a realist aproach. Every young man and his dog would like a force fed something, but I belive in "if you want a fast car, begin with factory fast and work from there" or something along those lines. Whilst your car has the speed (gti6 power tunks voly much) its still not a Gti6, and it is different, but different isn't always better. Its just as hard to turbo a Mi16 as a Gti6, perhaps you can shut me up and show us how its done, go on... please. Ill line up the stock Skylines... come one alex. Well all show our support. - Chris
    ... ptui!

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    Ecosse have it listed http://www.ecosse-peugeot.co.uk/products.asp?app=405 a lot of money though, not to mention finding room as mentioned above, it's pretty tight in that engine bay and with the heat of a turbo would make it pretty toasty, supercharging would be my choice, but again cost of a reliable set-up would be a factor.
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    1000+ Posts David Shearer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cam85
    If you are keen as i would try and source a T16 Motor out of the 405 T16. They are hard to find but im sure if you rang around for a few weeks over seas you would be able to get your hands on one. It would cost a little to get out here but being a turbo from start its a much better motor for it. 200hp and 220 on over boost. Not to bad ide say.

    Cam

    apparently you can buy brand new t16 motors from Peugeot france, bare engines only though and they're around $1500.
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    thats ok...

    hang on.. bare engines... no manifolds.. sumps, heads?

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    Cal
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    I'd bet my balls this would be cheaper than trying to do it yourself: http://www.ecosse-peugeot.co.uk/show...ct.asp?id=1094

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    Chris you argue that a 200sx would blow and 405mi16 in the weeds, i agree with you almost entirely why would you even try to make a peugeot go fast when it is probally never to go fast ? ... well the answer quite simily is that no matter how fat a wide body kit you put on a 200sx it is still readily identifable. (by most) and would need big money spent to make it anything unique.

    but a 405mi16 would be unique from the start and a smaller amount of dollars
    would get something that would be much more interesting will still having a bit of go.

    i suppose you could ask your self would you rather a commondor or a peugeot 505 of similar yr model ? and what about if this was modded ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiop
    i want something different something that is a bit unique but with some go maybe a bit of a sleeper
    You want something different? Bit of a sleeper?


    Like this?

    Yeehaa! About 150 horsepower/tonne if I've done my sums correctly

    Careful what you ask for, someone might offer it to you!

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    150hp for 1000kg why did u mention that 1hp for every 1kg would be worth a magic figure and is acievable
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    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiop
    Chris you argue that a 200sx would blow and 405mi16 in the weeds, i agree with you almost entirely why would you even try to make a peugeot go fast when it is probally never to go fast ? ... well the answer quite simily is that no matter how fat a wide body kit you put on a 200sx it is still readily identifable. (by most) and would need big money spent to make it anything unique.

    but a 405mi16 would be unique from the start and a smaller amount of dollars
    would get something that would be much more interesting will still having a bit of go.

    i suppose you could ask your self would you rather a commondor or a peugeot 505 of similar yr model ? and what about if this was modded ?

    Good point. I agree in AUSTRALIA a Mi16 is a more unusual starting point. But in the Europe its the other way around. Our 200sx is a very rare car in the Europe, even in the grey import scene.
    But each and every modified car is unique.
    However lets look at it in dollars Vs go fast only. As even I wouldn't body kit either a 200sx or a Mi16.
    A solid base Mi16 is about $10,000.
    To force feed it properly, including replacing things that will go quickly, ie clutch, engine mounts etc is another $10,000, and thats being generous and assuming nothing else is wrong with the car, and NOT doing internals.
    With about a safe 8-10 psi I think a fair 110KwATW is a fair call> correct me if i'm way off.
    A S14 200sx in good shape will cost about $15,000. In sydney they get a slow as $12K for the dog tired ones, and the good ones fetch nearly 20K. The S15's fetch even more.
    To get similar power ATW, you will also need $$$, BUT because the 200 is so well catered for and is much easier to find good bits at cheaper prices and already makes 100Kw ATW (145Kw at the fly) means that extra 10Kw will come easy and cheap. Now with 10K to play with you can do suspention, clutch, fix anything wrong, semi-slick tyres etc. We both know wich one will win the 1/4 mile, and i'm quite confident the 200 will just out lap the Mi. One the road, well thats subject to taste.
    Fact is there is plenty of ways to make the Mi unique, and you can make it faster, but I feel the money is mispent on force feeding it. Not also does that miss the point of a Mi, but turns it into something that won't be as much fun anymore. The minute you turdo it you are following the footsteps of every other ricer that thinks the only way fast is force fed... how unique is that. - Chris

    ps. Don't get me wrong, i love modded cars. Any one that has seen mi S16 will tell you, i can't stop at a stock car, but i really don't see the point in a force fed FWD that favours twisties, and trying to make it quick in a straight line. If you realy want to go quick in a straight line, spend 8K on a Rx2. 3, or 7 and end up with a 10 second car that is very rare and unique.
    Last edited by CHRI'S16; 25th February 2005 at 07:05 PM.
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    Fellow Frogger! WRCPUG's Avatar
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    True,... but I'm over the amount of people we get asking without a realist aproach. Every young man and his dog would like a force fed something, but I belive in "if you want a fast car, begin with factory fast and work from there" or something along those lines. Whilst your car has the speed (gti6 power tunks voly much) its still not a Gti6, and it is different, but different isn't always better. Its just as hard to turbo a Mi16 as a Gti6, perhaps you can shut me up and show us how its done, go on... please. Ill line up the stock Skylines... come one alex. Well all show our support. - Chris
    I understand where your coming from. Over the past five years ive heard the same sh1t over and over. Hell i was once asking bout turboing the gti6.

    My attitude changes all the time......it used to be like yours if u want a fast car start off with a fast factory car ect. But after seeing the same cars day in day out (mainly jap) you get over the scene.

    I was into the whole jap car thing for 3 years...i used to froth over some of these 200sx ect. But now days they are just a bit common for my liking.
    If ppl want to do stupid stuff to their car (power wise) im all for it...variety is the spice of life.

    Like i said i was pretty involved in all that jap car scene i dunno what its like over in sydney ( i heard its rice-tastic) but alot of ppl i know and used to hang around had turbo converted cars. Mirages (running 13's) Civics, Preludes IS200 ect. My friend is one of those honda obseded azns BUT he ha makes up turbo kits with great results. He built up a B18C with low comp pistons using his own designed turbo kit. On street tyres (low boost 17psi) car ran a high 12 @ 120MPH (is good for an 11). Car did put out over 300 front wheel kilowatts and he ran a low 1:50 around philip island.

    This is only one example he has turboed many other hondas with great succes and surprisingly the motors do last.

    Another example...the AVO bolt on turbo kit for a B16 Civic. Costs about $5K and produces 125-130 front wheels kilowatts. This is a basic kit...and will net the car 13 sec passes.

    Now i know these are Hondas not Peugeots but they are examples. Look at the Turbo FWD's from the US. They are putting out good power reliably and they still handle well.

    Its not hard to get a FWD turbo to handle...look at the Ford Focus RS. 160Kw through the front wheels and it outhandles WRX's.

    Also the modded FWD Audi and VW Golfs is huge in US....they are putting out quite good power through the fronts.

    I could go on an on about other cars i know have raced against and have been in but i wont. Ive EXPERIENCED 1st hand many turbo FWD cars.


    Fact is there is plenty of ways to make the Mi unique, and you can make it faster, but I feel the money is mispent on force feeding it. Not also does that miss the point of a Mi, but turns it into something that won't be as much fun anymore. The minute you turdo it you are following the footsteps of every other ricer that thinks the only way fast is force fed... how unique is that. - Chris

    I went through the N/A phase too...i got sik of all these turbo converted cars but u soon realise to make your N/A car fast you have to spend big $$$. Unless its say a VTEC or a 120kw+ Pug motor. I can tell u now after driving many 6 cylinder turbo cars that torque is a whole lotta fun no N/A 4 can match that push in the seat...and no N/A 4 sounds like a Large Turbo on boost with an external gate.

    It really depends what the person wants...N/A and FI both have their pros and cons to do either properly is not gonna be cheap.

    perhaps you can shut me up and show us how its done, go on... please. Ill line up the stock Skylines... come one alex. Well all show our support.
    haha na ill pass thanks...maybe a few years ago in my younger years but im really over spending $$$ on cars. If i had $$4 to waste it would be Dimma Widebody and a proper turbo setup....but then again if i had that $$$ id just got buy a Lancia Delta Evo instead. As fr stock skylines...contrary to popular belief they are not that quick...most pull low 15's and high 14's (R33's). Even modded R33s struggle to pull low 14's high 13's.
    PEUGEOT 306 GTi6 (1997-1999 HYBRID)
    105.4kw (141HP) ATW
    2:09 Phillip Island (Toyo Street Tyres)

    2001 YAMAHA YZF-R6
    119HP

    1993 MITSUBISHI 3000GT Twin Turbo
    300BHP
    STOCK-14.006 @97.4mph HEATHCOTE
    STOCK-1:15 CALDER Long Circuit (Stock Street Tyres + Stock Pads :banghead )
    (For Sale)

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    Oh and heres sum vids for you.
    Its a Clio ( i dont think its a sport) turbo converted putting out 270bhp and 252 lb/ft

    http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~cada...tclio/fred.WMV

    http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~cada...ttclio/pop.WMV

    http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~cada...ev%20sound.WMV

    This one takes the cake.

    600HP at the wheels Golf R32. I NEED this car. It sounds so good...better than any GTR

    http://www.eiptuning.com/eip/video/R...TSC768Kbps.wmv
    PEUGEOT 306 GTi6 (1997-1999 HYBRID)
    105.4kw (141HP) ATW
    2:09 Phillip Island (Toyo Street Tyres)

    2001 YAMAHA YZF-R6
    119HP

    1993 MITSUBISHI 3000GT Twin Turbo
    300BHP
    STOCK-14.006 @97.4mph HEATHCOTE
    STOCK-1:15 CALDER Long Circuit (Stock Street Tyres + Stock Pads :banghead )
    (For Sale)

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    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    Dont bother wasting money on a 405, unless you've got alot of money that you dont want to see again.

    Dont bother looking for a T16 engine, not going to happen and if you do find one, it wont be cheap and it'd be over 10 years old by now and need a rebuild anyway.
    You might aswell buy a 2.0 16v engine locally and rebuild that.

    Have you considered a 406 V6?
    The cars are pretty cheap now....406 V6TT sounds good doesn't it?

    Unless you're realistically looking at spending big dollars and are allowing for rebuilds and repairs...dont bother.

    Having said that, i'd still love a awd, boosted 405...in candy blue with my kit

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