Brake Stuff
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Thread: Brake Stuff

  1. #1
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    Default Brake Stuff

    What to look for?

    I'm tearing down the brakes on my R8 G, pulled the pistons from the calipers and found crud/dust/nothing good!

    I've been trying brake clean and a nylon brush to clean them, but the cylinder walls and even the piston itself do not want to get smoother... like they should be.

    What can I use to clean them? Anyone have any tips/tricks?

    Do I need to get them sleeved? While I do it should I get the rear caliper bored out to accept the larger front piston (just a thought!)?

    Other than blowing out the hard line with compressed air, replacing the soft lines and the master cylinder, what is there to look out for with the brake system rebuild?

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    Thanks ya'all...

  2. #2
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Increasing the piston size in the rear would be a disaster...

    You'd upset the brake balance of the car. Locking rear wheels would become a common scenario, but only till you spin it into something solid.

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    to clean up the parts try toothpaste

    don't laugh it works like a mild abrasive and cleans up the cylinders and pistons very well

    then i'd advise you measure everything up and then get the cylinders sleeved in stainless
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    Default So what you're really saying, is...

    I shouldn't waste my time trying to clean them, since I'll be having them resleeved anyway?


  5. #5
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Well, the machinists like clean surfaces to work with...

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    Fellow Frogger! lucin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    to clean up the parts try toothpaste

    don't laugh it works like a mild abrasive and cleans up the cylinders and pistons very well
    True, silica dioxide is added to toothpaste to "clean" the teeth better. And if you want even better cleaning, get a whitening toothpaste (it's got more sand in it to whiten your teeth more!)
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  7. #7
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    Default Parts cleaning

    Froggers

    Years ago there was a pressure can style of oven/stove cleaner, that would clean up pistons and other parts almost instantly it worked great on aluminium (or aluminun in the US ) parts, particularly engine pistons. the built up crud and staining would drip away leaving the piston shiny like brand new.

    Unfortunately the product went off the market (and I can't recall its name) (Old age ) and I haven't found another quite as good. It was quite inexpensive to use.

    They may have a stove/oven cleaner in the USA that will do a similar job for you, just try a light spray and watch carefully to see that there is no etching of the surfaces and wash off with warm water to ensure there is no chemical residue left. (should say on the spray can that it is safe to use on stoves with aluminium trim etc.)

    I still have some of the secondhand pistons that I cleaned with that product and they are still shiny like new

    Ken

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    Default Easy Off?

    That could be the name of it, it's still available here. It's pronounced... aluminum, not alumikneeum.

    The inside of the calipers appear to already be sleeved with steel, but this car hasn't been messed with since the mid 70s... does that make sense? Do the calipers come with steel inserts?

    The active ingredient in Easy Off is lye. It'll strip anodizing off aluminum, too.

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    Gordin, I use extremely fine (1600 grit) carborundum based 'wet or dry' paper (don't know what you call it over there) to clean the piston working surface. A bucket of soapy (dish liquid) water and throw the pistons in, then wrap the piston with the wet paper, holding it in your hand in a 'C' shape, and rotate the piston back and forth rapidly in your hand, turning it 1/4 of a turn occasionally. This way the microscopic scratches from the paper are parallel with the seal in the caliper. They polish up beautifully.

    Stuey


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    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Increasing the piston size in the rear would be a disaster...

    You'd upset the brake balance of the car. Locking rear wheels would become a common scenario, but only till you spin it into something solid.
    Increasing the piston size in the rear was, from what I can gather, a common upgrade in France but always in association with a front brake upgrade usually to R16 front brakes and a master cylinder upgade to 22mm bore and dual circuit.

    This is the way I will be going with the new rally car.
    Ross:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross
    Increasing the piston size in the rear was, from what I can gather, a common upgrade in France but always in association with a front brake upgrade usually to R16 front brakes and a master cylinder upgade to 22mm bore and dual circuit.

    This is the way I will be going with the new rally car.

    Are the R16 brakes an easy swap with the R8? Another consideration are my 13 inch Gottis, they have to fit inside those.

    Does that upgrade in piston diameter, R16 brakes, and dual circuit include the use of a booster? Will you be using a booster?

    I've got a thread going where I'm trying to figure out how to use a dual circuit master on my R8 with a brake booster, in the RENAULT forum.

    All I've done is confused myself and perhaps others. I'm new to this sort of thing.

    My idea is to get a dual master (for safety) and get the booster hooked up.

    But how!?

    I had the thought to use a single circuit master for now and look for a way to upgrade, but since I'm redoing all the calipers, master, and booster... I might as well try to flush out a solution now.

    Maybe upping the piston size in the rear, unboosted, and regular piston size in the front... boosted?

    Hmm....

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    The R16 conversion is relatively easy, all the parts are available from Meca Parts or, you can make them yourself, basically all thats needed is a caliper adaptor plate and a spacer ring to centre the disc. My understanding is they will fit inside your Gottis.

    As for boosters your asking the wrong person. For my application (rallying, hillclimbs etc) there is no need for boosted brakes, just extra weight and complication for no gain.

    There is nothing wrong with developing your own hybrid system, plenty of people have done it with good results but I have decided to go with a well proven up grade that has been used on many A110s, Dauphines, R8s and R10s
    Ross:

    1989 Alpine GTA Twin Turbo
    1963 Renault R8
    1996 Peugeot 106 S16
    1967 NSU Prinz 1200TT
    1989 Peugeot 205 GTi

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    I had an idea that I thought you might appreciate, thought it will add some weight. For rallys, it seems perfect. I got the idea when looking at the rear brakes on an old alfa, they have an additional braking system (small drum brake) on the rear wheels in case of hydraulic failure.

    My idea differs, it includes two extra rear calipers on the rear brakes... attached to a hydraulic handbrake. Combining two backing plate/caliper mounts together, with a torch, and just using an additional set of single piston calipers would do the trick.

    It would be great to help get around tight corners quickly...



    And if the main hydraulic system fails, it allows you to stop the car simply by using the handbrake.

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    Sounds like a great idea however I can see one problem

    If you have two caliper brackets on the rear where are you going to attach the radius arms??

    Hydraulic hand brakes are not uncommon on Alpines/Dauphines/R8s/R10s but all linked to the existing caliper units. I dont know exactly how they work but I'm sure it cant be that complicated.
    Ross:

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    in my days of driving R10s, I battled with dodgy brakes with sticky pistons for ages. Then I just had the stripped calipers plastic bead blasted (makes 'em look brand new ), and scrubbed the pistons clean with carby cleaner and a green kitchen scourer and reassembled with new seals. THEN I discovered what great brakes they are supposed to be. The calipers dont need resleeving, as the smooth surface for the seal in the piston - this needs to be smooth. If scrubbing with solvent doesnt work (or a bit of fine grade wet and dry sandpaper), find some better pistons or get them polished (or if they are real bad, rechrome plated and machined back to spec)

    Dont bother trying to get the calipers clean yourself, its not worth the hassle and bead blasting is the only way to go. With good pads/discs, it will stand the car on its nose after this treatment. They dont need boosters if everything is in good nick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross
    If you have two caliper brackets on the rear where are you going to attach the radius arms??

    I thought about that, I don't think it would have to be directly opposed to the other caliper. It could go above the radius arm connecting point, checking for clearance throughout the axle movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross
    Hydraulic hand brakes are not uncommon on Alpines/Dauphines/R8s/R10s but all linked to the existing caliper units. I dont know exactly how they work but I'm sure it cant be that complicated.
    In this case, the two systems, I believe, are still integrated. Therefore if one fails, the other fails and you lose hydraulic fluid... unless of course you're running a dual circuit.

    I'm trying to accomplish three things, keeping my car stock (as stock as it is now), making it safe, and getting it set up for vintage racing.

    Anyone race a G in the sixties with Gottis and flared wheel wells?

    I could use a pic to show the racing association that they did race them like that! Otherwise, they may want me to deflare and degotti my car, something I'm not apt to do!

    It looks much too cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordinowitz
    I had an idea that I thought you might appreciate, thought it will add some weight. For rallys, it seems perfect. I got the idea when looking at the rear brakes on an old alfa, they have an additional braking system (small drum brake) on the rear wheels in case of hydraulic failure.
    That's a fairly common way of putting a hand brake on a lot of disc braked rears. Although they refer to it as an emergency brake (like with a lot of hand brakes!) they don't actually work very well and are really only a parking brake.

    Or is the Alfa one plumbed into the hydraulics and operates with the pedal? I don't think so, but I't'd be interesting if it does!

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    Cleaning the crud off the pistons etc try 0000 steel wool, (very fine) and Palmolive washing up liquid, (soft on the hands).

    If you can find one, use an ultrasonic bath with acetone, (no rubber included).

    How expensive is it to get new slaves and maybe a master.
    With another make, I was informed that re-sleeving is only done when new parts are unavailable.

    Carby cleaner sprayed into the pipe work and left for a while will dislodge a frightening amount of grunge. Flush with warm soapy water and dry well with compressed air.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    That's a fairly common way of putting a hand brake on a lot of disc braked rears. Although they refer to it as an emergency brake (like with a lot of hand brakes!) they don't actually work very well and are really only a parking brake.

    Or is the Alfa one plumbed into the hydraulics and operates with the pedal? I don't think so, but I't'd be interesting if it does!

    Stuey
    I'm not sure if the drum is also the handbrake or even if it's hydraulic, but I'm pretty sure it is actuated by the brake pedal.

  20. #20
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    I used to own a Renault 10 that had a power booster already fitted when I bought it, apparently because the previous owner had a prosthetic foot and the law stated that he had to have boosted brakes. He assured me it was unnecessary however.

    I found the brakes in this $400 (plus ~1.83 spare cars thrown in) car to be excellent for lightness, control and minimal pedal travel. I mention the $400 (Australian dollars) to make it clear that this was a very old, worn out car that nobody was going to waste money or effort on maintaining.

    I bought the car so I could drive around while my sports car was off the road, hence had no intention of modifying the R10. I did, however, decide that the weight and compexity of the brake booster offended me, so I took it out. BIG MISTAKE. Now the brakes became lifeless, heavy and spongey. (I had fitted new pads when I bought the car but never cleaned the caliper internals.)

    The booster was mounted in the engine bay and a brake line ran from the master cylinder all the way to the booster (some sort of standard remote booster). I think the brake line out of the booster ran all the way to the front to join wherever the original master cylinder line had its first connection. So you can see why it offended me - not a neat solution. BUT, the setup WAS magnificent to use.

    Rick

    PS Of course Gordin, I expect you to also blow up your balloons with helum,
    have your racing wheels made of magnesum and use titanum bolts to save weight..... I think I need some Valum.... maybe I need lithum.

  21. #21
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    To answer your question about flaring the mudguards...

    In Touring Car racing in Australia during the 60s and early seventies, this was not permitted. It was only in this period that R8Gs raced in Touring Car racing.

    However, I think there might have been one or two ran in Sports Sedan races later in the sixties and into the seventies, and also in Rallycross events (definitely there)...

    But under the rules for these classes, even bigger engines could be fitted, they could be mounted ahead of the axle, all sorts of things. Certainly not what you would want.

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