505 Gti Cold Start
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Default 505 Gti Cold Start

    The No 2 son's series 2 Gti (L jet) has developed an aversion to starting from cold (as in overnight sit). The main symptom is having to crank for a while, presumably this starts the pump and it then fills the system up to operating pressure and then it fires OK. (About 10 to 20 seconds generally)

    Warm starts are sweet and almost instant.

    The cold start valve is acting in an identical manner to the Gti wagon that shares the drive, so I discount this as a fault since the wagon starts fine hot or cold.

    We've replaced the main fuel pump since this was nosiy anyway, and, I believe, contains a non return valve. I fail to see how the scavenge (in tank) pump could affect this, but it seems to be working anyway. (And they're largely unnecessary in my opinion)

    Starting is now a bit better, but there is still that long crank to prime the system.

    Has anyone experienced this? I suspect that a non return valve in the pressure regulator may be faulty, but I'm reluctant to play with this yet if there are other possible causes.

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    Car has recently been tuned, has new plugs and is in excellent mechanical condition. This problem seems to have started just after I replaced the cam belt for its 200,000 Km birthday. I can't see anything moved, bent, kinked, shifted or otherwise awry.

    Any ideas?
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Has made it to the Hoist!
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Also waiting in the wings
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger!
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    As you might expect, the possibilities are many!

    Either the 'K' or 'L' Bosch injection systems will give a virtual instant start hot or cold if all is in order.

    If the fuel pumps are OK, how is the fuel pressure accumulator? Any leaks or internal malfunction will add to the time required for the total system pressure to reach injector operating pressure (about 3.3 bar).

    Any incorrectly fitted vacuum hoses will upset the initial setting of the auxiliary air device, thus effecting the fuel flow / mixture setting (based upon engine temperature).

    Check the tachymetric relay under the panel below the steering wheel. This relay provides the trigger for closing the contacts to power the main fuel pressure pump. It contains a printed circuit, so some test equpiment (multi-meter) needed. Otherwise, if you can borrow another relay, try that for comparison.

    Cheers,
    Kim.

  3. #3
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    what happens if you turn the ign on and wait for around 10 sec then start the car ?
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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts silverexec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    what happens if you turn the ign on and wait for around 10 sec then start the car ?
    I don't think S2 505s have a fuel pump that turns on when the ignition is switched on (I'm guessing this is where you were heading?). The fuel pump in my S1 Gti doesn't start pumping until I flick the key to "start". Well, I haven't heard it pumping, unlike the fuel pump in an old friend's VK Berlina that you could hear whirring 5m away...

    Richard
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    Earlier: 505 GTi Executive '85
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  5. #5
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Thanks for the input chaps.

    This is an L-jetronic car. To the best of my knowledge it was only the K-jet on the STi that had the accumulator next to the fuel pump.

    The pump doesn't start pumping until the cranking begins, so I guess this means that the electronics module doesn't have a 10 second priming cycle like the old D-jet system. This implies that the pressure should be held up under normal circumstances, and also that it's not being held at present.

    I've sort of discounted the tachymetric relay since the car starts eventually and continues to run. Nice to know where the bloody thing is though!

    Your suggestion of checking vacuum hoses will be followed up today maybe. Since the fault has only become apparent since removing bits and pieces to replace the cam belt and water pump, you could be on the right track.

    Actually, as I write this I recall that the thermostat housing has two temperature sensors on it, both with the "clip on" type Bosch plug. I wonder if I have inadvertently reversed these? They would be providing temperature input to the system certainly, but from different senders presumably for different parameters. Hmmm.

    I think I have some fiddling to do on GTi when No 2 son brings it home from work. Will keep everyone updated.
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Has made it to the Hoist!
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Also waiting in the wings
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Cubits's Avatar
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    Aaaah...

    My 205 has had long crank issues for a while, and fuel vapour smell for a while too. Me thinks they may be linked. I pulled the rear seat open, but couldn't really ascertain anything from there. Might let "my best expensive friend" Ian have a go at it. Guess he can do my master cylinder and look at the pinging at the same time.

    Actually, if the fuel pressure is too low, could that cause the pinging anyway?

    Wow, could solve most of my problems in one go if that was it.
    1987 205 GTI - Graphite Grey - 206k km's
    1988 MR2 Supercharger - Mica Blue - 114k km's

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Light is dawning and progress is being made.

    Inspection of the two connections mentioned earlier has brought something to light.

    There is a temperature sensor in the bottom rear of the thermostat housing which uses a two pin Bosch plug. In front of this there are two more temperature sensors with single connections to them. Atop the thermo housing is the cold start/fast idle valve with an identical two pin Bosch plug.

    Guess who had not seen (or ignored!) the colour coding of the two Bosch plugs and reversed them? (Yeah, 'twas me!)

    Putting them back the right way, however resulted in car not starting at all!

    My theory is this. The cold start device has a heating element inside which is supplied with 12 volts and ground from the Bosch plug. The sensor in the housing, however, is most likely a thermistor.

    Putting volts on the thermistor by mistake has probably cooked it causing it to go open circuit. Presumably open circuit is an invalid input state for the control box and consequently the engine starteth not. I haven't checked this with a multimeter yet, but I will.

    When the sensor plug is attached to the cold start device, however, it sees the heating coil as a fixed reading, albeit analogous to whatever wrong temperature indication, and will start and run.

    As I write, we're chasing up a replacement sensor and this, along with some analysis with a multimeter, should prove the whole shaky hypothesis.

    I'll keep everyone informed.

    Ain't amateur mechanicking fun?
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Has made it to the Hoist!
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Also waiting in the wings
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Murphy's Law has struck again!!

    Yes, the colour coding is the supposedly the way of avoiding an incorrect connection, but, as you have seen........?

    I will be very interested in hearing the outcome, so look forward to your next installment.

    Cheers,
    Kim.

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Murphy certainly weasels his way into everything! We have a 505 STi motor in the garage. It has a sensor in the same spot. It has the same "Bosch" type 2 pin connector. So far, so good.

    It's too big!

    OK. Research is beginning to indicate that this device is in fact the Thermo-time switch. If this be the case, I would expect to see continuity when cold, and either open circuit or resistance when hot. Or perhaps that should be the other way around?

    Anyway, the only L-Jet descriptions I can find on the Net (and there are lots!) state fairly categorically that the thermo-time switch is used in conjunction with a cold start injector. I can state almost as categorically that neither this GTi or the GTi wagon have a cold start injector at all! Yes, I've looked and the clincher for me is that there is no additional line from the fuel rail to any suspicious looking device. I reckon that this model simply takes the temp reading and lengthens the pulse until the temp is up to scratch.

    Does this mean that my first surmise was right in that it's just a thermistor that we've blown up?

    We pulled out the one on the car and checked it. It measures high megohms, open circuit for mine. Unfortunately time and vehicle demand constraints meant I couldn't warm it up and check again. The same sort of constraints are stopping me checking the one on the GTi wagon as a comparison.

    The Bosch part number on the unit is 0 280 130 026. This seems to be a common part used on just about every injected (L-jet) Pug.

    The listing I have identifies it only as a "Temperature Sensor/Sender". It doesn't specify that it is a thermo-time unit.

    Now given that EAI in Melbourne list a "INJ. TEMP SENSOR-P405/205/505 GTI/R25LE P/N P024246." Can anyone enlighten me whether this is the unit or not?

    I'll call EAI and ask I guess, but they don't list a "thermo-time" switch at all.

    I look forward to any intelligence anyone can spare me. In the meantime, I'm off to bed!

    Night all!
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Has made it to the Hoist!
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Also waiting in the wings
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger!
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    You are right about the principle behind cold starting compensation with the L type injection.

    Unlike the K type with a cold start injector, the L series modifies the fuel injection duration (creating a richer mixture). In my years of ownership of both K & L fitted vehicles ('84 505 Exec & 86 505 S2), the K has always has an instant cold start characteristic.

    The L can be a little bit fussy if the ambient temperature is somewhere between freezing and barely cold. In fact, the colder the better for the L type.

    I can check the same component for you this weekend if needs be. In fact, I also have a spare 86' GTI motor complete, so can make some comparisons. Sorry I cannot be more help at this stage.

    Can you give a good web address for info on the Bosch L type injection?

    Cheers,
    Kim.

  11. #11
    WLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by KIMDEB
    Can you give a good web address for info on the Bosch L type injection?

    Cheers,
    Kim.
    Try this one Kim.
    www.roversd1.nl/sd1web/injection.html
    If you're still stuck I can copy the Peugeot L-Jetronic manual for you.

    Regards,
    Warwick.

  12. #12
    WLB
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    Kim, that Dutch Rover site seems to have changed. You may need to search around in it a bit for the injection page.

    Warwick.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    It's ALIVE Marthter! It's ALIVE!!!

    It starts from cold!

    Yes, the part from European Auto Imports (P/N P24246) is in fact a direct replacement for Bosch P/N 0 280 130 026.

    We put it in, turned the key and Vroom! Car was cold in that it hadn't been driven all day (He pinched the Mini to go to work!)

    Ambient resistance was around 1200 ohms, as opposed to the crook one which still says 200 Megohms!

    Once more we triumph over the powers of darkness.

    Thanks to all who helped out.

    Kim, I simply searched using Google for "L Jetronic thermo time peugeot" and got a huge number of hits. Several volkswagen pages offered replacement tables for different Bosch parts. Very useful.
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Has made it to the Hoist!
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Also waiting in the wings
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  14. #14
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    Hi Pottsy,

    Sounds like it was the culprit. Many thanks for the generic P/No reference. Can you tell me what the part cost? Will let you know how I go with the 'google' information.

    Warwick, thanks also for the offer to photo-copy the Peugeot L-Jetronic info. Is that from the 505 Haynes Manual, as I do have a copy of that one, although I find it overlooks some important information.

    Cheers,
    Kim.

  15. #15
    WLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by KIMDEB
    Is that from the 505 Haynes Manual, as I do have a copy of that one, although I find it overlooks some important information.
    No, it's the PSA one Kim.
    L-Jetronic (LE, LU, LU2 & LH) principles of operation,
    and Tests, repair operations & adjustments for 851 B ZDJL engines.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Cost was $38 plus gst (List price. I guess mailing would add a few quid)

    The replacement has no numbers on it, so it is certainly a generic, but when I rang EAI they were able to check that the Bosch number was on their cross reference.

    EAI's website is a goldmine of info, and they have lots of good bits, some of which would surprise you. For instance, we needed a new handbrake cable for the 1972 Ti 504 the other day, that's the cable from the underdash handle to the lever under the floor behind the B pillars. I was all set to get a new inner made in the old outer, but a check revealed that not only did they list them, but they had them on the shelf! Bonus. It wasn't even expensive!

    www.eai.net.au for reference.

    Cheers.
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Has made it to the Hoist!
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Also waiting in the wings
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Hi Warwick,

    I would be really interested in the PSA L-Jetronic info!

    Can you tell me what I need to do to get a photo-copy from you? Email me off line if you wish ( [email protected])

    Alternatively, you could scan and save as a PDF file, and either email or save to a disc.

    Cheers,

    Kim.

  18. #18
    WLB
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    Place $1.17 in unmarked notes in a brown paper bag under the second rubbish bin on the left just inside the main gates on Grand Prix day. And then....um.....


    Bugger!
    I know of at least one cop who reads this forum, I'd better use your e-mail address.

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