xu10j4 timing belt tension procedure??
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  1. #1
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    Default xu10j4 timing belt tension procedure??

    OK all you guys who are "into" hot cams and cam profiles - how do you set up the cambelt tension correctly without the special tool recommended by peugeot which I am sure none of you use?

    What are the "rules of thumb" you use to get it right. I have read and re-read the haynes manual description of the process but it does not seem to me to fully explain how tight to get the front and the rear runs ...

    I have tried the 45 degree twist with "reasonable" force in the past but this seems very dependant on how strong your hands are and or how easy it is to get at ...

    My old Rotax 4stroke motor bike motor specified a deflection for a given force - 5mm for 1 Kg force I think - on the tension side... given that all these belts work about the same will that do?

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    All advice and help will be gratefully recieved....

    cheers

    Trevor
    Trevor Hoare
    Boolarra Vic

    '95 405Mi16 - what a great car! ; 89 405 ( for my daughter )
    previously 205Si, 504Ti, HR wagon with R16 seats, R16, R10, VW kombi, VW passat, HQ panel van, FB panelvan, Rover'49 P3 4-light

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default Timing belt procedure...

    Renault had a tool for measuring belt tension. It was a convenient pocket size, so convenient that is where most of the them finished up! The same has probably happened at Peugeot dealers.

    I can understand your concern but i would think it's a common sense thing. Too tight* and you'll have tensioner pulley problems and a whining noise.
    * It will be too tight if you draw the back of a hacksaw blade over the belt it will get you the opening bar of Stravinski's "Flight Of The Bumblebee".

  3. #3
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    No, the Peugeot recommended 'Seems' testers just break, apparently. And even when they aren't broken they're really hard to use and give inconsistent results.*

    *as told to me, not my experience.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  4. #4
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    Default More specifics please!

    Thanks guys for your responses. I am aware that most people do them by feel which suggests to me that the exact settings are not so important, especially on single cam systems.

    My worry with the twin cams is that the position of the front tensioner determines the overall valve timing where on a single cam the tension run is usually a fixed lenth so the tension does not affect the relationship between the cam and the crank. Since the crank and the cams are locked by the pins on the XU10J4 the front and rear tensions can be set separately and this seems to be what is suggested in the Haynes manual if you have access to the tool.

    It seems to me that the belt tension measurer just measures deflection between two fixed points on the belt under a known load...
    and that the idler/adjusters and the existing pulleys can perform the very same function by using a small tension wrench. Is it possible that someone who has access to one of the factory tools could use a tension wrench and measure the tension needed to acheive the correct setting on the factory tool.

    One discussoin thread I found a couple of years ago while doing the same research for the XU5 motor in my 205 related to the porche quadcam V8 and they had made a tool with a lever arm and a weight hanging on it to get it right. If we know the torque needed we can design a tool like this so that you can concentrate on tightening the lockscrews on the tensiner while the lever and weight supply the correct tension.

    In the end I probably left the belt too tight on the XU5 - it always had more whine especially 2000-2500 RPM after I did the belt.

    Also I am getting a set of engine locking pins made and would like to know how deep the 6mm holes in the block/head are and how log the 8 mm section of the pins have to be to reach through the pulleys..

    Cheers

    Trev
    Trevor Hoare
    Boolarra Vic

    '95 405Mi16 - what a great car! ; 89 405 ( for my daughter )
    previously 205Si, 504Ti, HR wagon with R16 seats, R16, R10, VW kombi, VW passat, HQ panel van, FB panelvan, Rover'49 P3 4-light

  5. #5
    Tadpole
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    Hi Trev, the 2 dowel pins which came with my s/h mi16 are of these dimensions:

    6mm diameter section: length 25-27mm
    8mm diameter section: length 23-24mm

    Mine vary small amount presumably cos they have been made up by the prev owner (not factory jobs) - suspect normally 25mm each.

    cheers,
    Trev
    Mt Waverley, VIC

  6. #6
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    Not that this is of any use but a set of factory engine tools just went on eBay over the last couple of days which included the dowels. There's another set of piston fitting tools on there right now. I would've bid on the first, but the postage from the US is horrific...

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  7. #7
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    FWIW, these are the tools I have or made up to do the cambelt changes on our cars.
    Not shown are the stepped pins to hold each of the cam sprockets, however the sizes you quote are about right from memory. I had mine made from dimensions shown in the Haynes manual (how brave am I??) and they were corrcet; the only difference was that I made the end that pokes out longer than their recommendation due to the fact that Mr H didn't allow for anyone having to be able to get hold of it to pull it out.
    A point worthy of note though, is the material they are made out of; I had mine made by one of the guys in the pit crew team of a car racing outfit and they were made of a very crapppy aluminium material. When I asked why, he apologised that he didn't have plastic or something even softer...
    He then gave me the reason as being in case they were accidentally left in and the engine attempted to be started. I thought he was having me on "Nobody's that stoopid are they??" well within a week of me asking the question on a board in the UK I heard of two instances where in one case HT steel had been used and in another Stainless was used both of which gave a beeeeauuuutiful finish to the pins, but in both cases, the starter had been hit following an interruption ("D'ya wanna cuppa tea luv") and in both cases, caused a head off job, so the moral of the story is if you make them up, do it in an easily sheared off material.
    As regards the Seems tool, I posted on the Pug forum yesterday about these but I would also like to add that if you ever see any pics of these tools you'll see they are always shown being used on an engine sitting on a bench. That's because (I've been told) that in most cases the tool cannot be used in the car itself due to space constraints and added to this, in cases where it will fit, the cramped space leaves its readings open to inaccuracy. If this is the case, why would you spend the dollars to buy one as it will only be used every 4 years on average and if the engine has to be out to do it properly, wouldn't it make more sense to take the engine to a "specialist" so if a future problem arises that's belt induced, you have some redress on him?
    If you ever read the genuine factory information on the fitting of the belt and the use of the Seems tool, I think you'll agree with me that it is used mainly to save Mr Citroen, Mr Repairer and Mr Haynes's respective arses in case of a belt snap. The reason I say this is that in one section it states "Adjust tensioner 1 to it's maximum tension. Read instrument. It should read 19 Seems or more. If however it doesn't just proceed to next stage." which tells me it's more a peace of mind exercise than a strict necessity.
    You're giving yourself ulcers for nothing.

    Alan S
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails xu10j4 timing belt tension procedure??-cambelttools.jpg  
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  8. #8
    Tadpole
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    Hi Trev,

    I did mine on a 205 and it was a Bast*rd. The problem is you have no space for anything let alone a bloody adjustments tool....after this job your knuckles will be raw!
    Looking in the Haynes manual for they TU engine they give a deflection of 6mm at the midpoint between the sprockets (I assumed they meant the longest run between the camshaft/crankshaft) and measured it with a drill. I also did the 90 degree twist test, and also erred on the side of caution by preferring a slightly tighter belt (that might stetch a little over time) that on a negative side would wear bearings over time, but wouldnt slip a tooth due to it being too loose!

    After I did mine (having locked everything in place properly) i started to get a little 'pinking' (didnt happen before on the original belt) tried everything to get rid of it but was unable to...any ideas here folks?...unfortunatly I couldnt adjust the timing as its fully controlled by the ECU and sensors....oh for a simple engine where you have some control!

  9. #9
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecoman
    Hi Trev,

    I did mine on a 205 and it was a Bast*rd. The problem is you have no space for anything let alone a bloody adjustments tool....after this job your knuckles will be raw!
    Looking in the Haynes manual for they TU engine they give a deflection of 6mm at the midpoint between the sprockets (I assumed they meant the longest run between the camshaft/crankshaft) and measured it with a drill. I also did the 90 degree twist test, and also erred on the side of caution by preferring a slightly tighter belt (that might stetch a little over time) that on a negative side would wear bearings over time, but wouldnt slip a tooth due to it being too loose!

    After I did mine (having locked everything in place properly) i started to get a little 'pinking' (didnt happen before on the original belt) tried everything to get rid of it but was unable to...any ideas here folks?...unfortunatly I couldnt adjust the timing as its fully controlled by the ECU and sensors....oh for a simple engine where you have some control!

    Was this on an 8 or a 16 Valve engine? I found the 16 easier to get to than the 8 on a BX providing you had an engine crane to support it on, but I can tell you one thing for sure; if you didn't adjust the tensioners in the manner I described (as in sequence and direction) the belt will definitely NOT have the correct tension. As good a guide as any to the tensioning should be the ability of the engine to be turned over, stopped and the locating pins refitted without any stuffing around.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  10. #10
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    Default Thanks

    thanks for the advice Alan and ecoman.

    The current plan is to do some measurements of deflections at different points using a push-pull spring scale on the existing installation before taking it off as a starting point. I know the new belt will need to be tighter but the more I hear and think about the situation the more I am coming to the idea that there is probably quite a wide tolerance of acceptable tensions so that as long as it is not too tight and not acutally loose it will probably work OK

    I See that on the TU motor the Haynes manual suggests an arrangement with a lever and weight - 2 Kg at 80 mm ~= 1.6 Newton metres - which does not seem to be much torque to me.

    The other observation is that these belts are standard constructions so that the actual tension needed is probably determined by the belt specs rather than the engine type and that they are likely to be very simmilar from engine to engine.

    Anyway I will post my before findings when I do the job in a couple of weeks.

    cheers
    Trevor Hoare
    Boolarra Vic

    '95 405Mi16 - what a great car! ; 89 405 ( for my daughter )
    previously 205Si, 504Ti, HR wagon with R16 seats, R16, R10, VW kombi, VW passat, HQ panel van, FB panelvan, Rover'49 P3 4-light

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by trevh
    I See that on the TU motor the Haynes manual suggests an arrangement with a lever and weight - 2 Kg at 80 mm ~= 1.6 Newton metres - which does not seem to be much torque to me.
    When you say that, do you mean on a general scale that it's not much torque? The reason I ask is that the torque you apply at the lever gains a mechanical advantage at the tensioner because of leverage of the eccentric (the TU tensioner is eccentric, isn't it?).

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  12. #12
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    Default misaligned pulleys?

    Ok Guys,
    I have bitten the bullet and started the cambelt change on the XU10j4.

    First problem: I cannot get the locking pins in! When the crank is correctly aligned I can get the inlet cam lock in pretty easily but I am nowhere near the exhaust pulley hole which is some way past the hole. I can get a 3mm allen key in but its on a crooked angle.

    I have taken the belt off after getting a good idea of how tight it is and can turn the exhaust cam back till I can get the lock pin in. Bloody annoying that the cams are not in a resting position with the pins in so they "lean" on the pins. Now, when I try to fit the belt the top run between the pulleys is really slack....

    What to do? the original belt had 25 teeth between the pulley timing marks and my guess is to go with that even if the holes do not line up.

    any ideas why the holes do not line up?

    help please.....
    Trevor Hoare
    Boolarra Vic

    '95 405Mi16 - what a great car! ; 89 405 ( for my daughter )
    previously 205Si, 504Ti, HR wagon with R16 seats, R16, R10, VW kombi, VW passat, HQ panel van, FB panelvan, Rover'49 P3 4-light

  13. #13
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    Default All fixed!

    the job is done and all is well with new belt fitted, correctly tensioned and aligned. See the simmilar thread in the peugeot forum for all the details:

    Tensioning cambelt on Mi16?

    Cheers
    Trevor Hoare
    Boolarra Vic

    '95 405Mi16 - what a great car! ; 89 405 ( for my daughter )
    previously 205Si, 504Ti, HR wagon with R16 seats, R16, R10, VW kombi, VW passat, HQ panel van, FB panelvan, Rover'49 P3 4-light

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