Mi16 Power
  • Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 28

Thread: Mi16 Power

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,446

    Default Mi16 Power

    After recently building an Mi16 engine for the new owner of my track car, I thought you might be interested in the results. This engine was basically stock, including ECU, with the exception of balancing, Stage I inlet cam and an increase in compression from 9.7:1 to 10.8:1 (via decking block & liners).

    You may recall from a previous thread that a fresh Mi16 with 9.7:1 and a Stage 1 inlet cam made 84kW at the wheels. On the same dyno, the engine above made an impressive 92kW at the wheels (ambient air temp 40 deg C). The air-fuel ratios at full load were around 12.8:1, meaning that the std mapping was capable of supplying enough fuel for the increase in power. Remapping the ECU would not make any more power. Further mods would require remapping however.

    I thought it was a valuable exercise that clearly shows how important compression is for an Mi16 engine to make decent power.

    Advertisement

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! enthused!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Sinney
    Posts
    439

    Default

    so i take it this was 1.9 alloy block Peter?

    Can you explain how you raise compression without new pistons/liners?

    What is the process of engine balancing, is it a home job or best left to the "professionals"?

    Also... whens the website going live?? (waiting in anticipation)
    1992 mi16 1.9 litre - it's a love hate realtionship.

    whatever you do NEVER tell anyone your car is reliable. doesn't matter how much wood you touch!

    previous cars: peugeot 306xt, peugeot 205si, renault 20, renault 12 - sedan and wagon, renault 25, alfa 155 twin spark

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by enthused!
    so i take it this was 1.9 alloy block Peter?

    Can you explain how you raise compression without new pistons/liners?

    What is the process of engine balancing, is it a home job or best left to the "professionals"?

    Also... whens the website going live?? (waiting in anticipation)
    Yes it was an alloy Mi16. The compression is raised by milling approx. 1.3mm off the top of the block and each liner. Not a job for the faint hearted. Owen Wuillemin did it for me. In addition to raising the CR, it also brings the piston flush with the top of the liner which reduces the squish height. This improves the burn rate (and effeciency) enormously, creating much better throttle response.

    The pistons, rods, crank, etc. were balanced at Duncan Foster Engineering. They weren't significantly out of balance from the factory.

    Without being biased, it's absolutely the sweetest Mi16 engine I've driven. Gone now

    Website? Soon.
    Last edited by PeterT; 17th January 2005 at 03:46 PM.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    nth balwyn, victoria
    Posts
    1,428

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    Yes it was an alloy Mi16. The compression is raised by milling approx. 1.3mm off the top of the block and each liner. Not a job for the faint hearted. Owen Wuillemin did it for me. In addition to raising the CR, it also brings the piston flush with the top of the liner which reduces the squish height. This improves the burn rate (and effeciency) enormously, creating much better throttle response.

    The pistons, rods, crank, etc. were balanced at Duncan Foster Engineering. They weren't significantly out of balance from the factory.

    Without being biased, it's absolutely the sweetest Mi16 engine I've driven. Gone now

    Website? Soon.
    hello peter ,may i ask an inexperienced question?
    well here goes.,could the work you did on the mi 16 be done on a sereies 1 205 8v to sweeten it up a bit.? ie balancing and upping the cp in the same manner as you describe .-BAZZ

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    1,340

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bazgti
    hello peter ,may i ask an inexperienced question?
    well here goes.,could the work you did on the mi 16 be done on a sereies 1 205 8v to sweeten it up a bit.? ie balancing and upping the cp in the same manner as you describe .-BAZZ
    8 Valve is easy to get compression from, just combine an early engine block with a late model head. Also its safe to shave 8 Valve heads quite a bit.

    Dave


  6. #6
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    6,248

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by enthused!
    What is the process of engine balancing, is it a home job or best left to the "professionals"?
    You can balance the rods and pistons with an electronic scale by removing material down to the weight of the lightest one, but you need to know what you're doing so as not to weaken them (only the rods) or leave a stress point. I've done it on a Cooper S. However, the crank and flywheel you leave to be dynamically balanced by an expert!

    Peter, is there easily enough adjustment in the timing belt adjusters to account for the 1.3mm? I assume there would be, but I'll ask anyway.

    Cheers

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,446

    Default

    Yes Stuey, there's enough room on the tensioners.

    As for the 8V. You can take up to 2mm off a DFZ 1.9L head which will give approx. 10:1, or better still, fit the DKZ head with smaller chambers. You'll have problems with pinging however, in the 2000-3000 range, if you don't fit mapped ignition or rework the distributor curve. That's the beauty of the Mi16. The knock sensor takes care of all that.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! KRISKARRERA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    England!
    Posts
    134

    Default

    Shows how important good compression is on the Mi16 then. What's 92kw in bhp?
    405 MI16
    170bhp
    Le lion va de la force la force!

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    CLARE SA
    Posts
    2,324

    Default

    Multiply Kw by 1.3142 to achieve Hp. 121.
    Last edited by edgedweller; 19th January 2005 at 01:45 AM.

  10. #10
    Cal
    Cal is offline
    Moderator Cal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    1,624

    Default

    Peter, I imagine there is no way to deck the head and liners while the engine remains in the car. In fact I can't imagine you could even do it with the short motor assembled?

    Cal.
    1995 Mazda MX5 - 2F Race Car
    1990 Mercedes 300TE
    1990 Mercedes 230E
    1977 Jaguar XJS V12
    1971 Morris Mini 1100K
    1967 Porsche 911S
    1957 Porsche 356A Speedster Replica

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    6,248

    Default

    I'd say absolutely no way, Cal! It has to be milled on a milling machine in a workshop; you'd need to wash the block and liners thoroughly before reassembly.

    Good to see you back; there were some worries about you over in Asia with the Tsunami hitting.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    2,678

    Default M16 Power.

    Peter T,
    With the drastic work done on the block etc this would mean that the overall height of the engine would have been reduced?
    Were you able to [A] "catch up" with your cam timing by shuffling a tooth on the belt or[B] did you have a vernier adjustment on the modified cam pulley?

    Comment [A] was made with tongue in cheek !

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,446

    Default

    Yes the block height is reduced by 1.3mm. It's done on a large milling machine. The liners are held on a mandrel and turned on a lathe to get the correct length/height - 0.003" protrusion. Not a job for the faint hearted.

    Cam timing remains std. as there are two pulleys, taking up equal slack.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    2,678

    Default Mi16 Power.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    Yes the block height is reduced by 1.3mm. It's done on a large milling machine. The liners are held on a mandrel and turned on a lathe to get the correct length/height - 0.003" protrusion. Not a job for the faint hearted.

    Cam timing remains std. as there are two pulleys, taking up equal slack.
    Peter,
    I think we may be talking at cross porpoises regarding the belt and cam pulleys. Yes I can see that the belt run between the pulleys, with the timing marks observed remains the same.
    Now, with the reduced height of the block the belt run between the first cam and crank pulley would be slack. The only way to take up this slack would be to turn the engine clockwise. This would mean the crank pulley position would be wrong. To turn the engine back would in turn put the cams out of kilter. The belt tensioner would have no effect on this.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    Peter,
    I think we may be talking at cross porpoises regarding the belt and cam pulleys. Yes I can see that the belt run between the pulleys, with the timing marks observed remains the same.
    Now, with the reduced height of the block the belt run between the first cam and crank pulley would be slack. The only way to take up this slack would be to turn the engine clockwise. This would mean the crank pulley position would be wrong. To turn the engine back would in turn put the cams out of kilter. The belt tensioner would have no effect on this.
    Yes it does. Reducing block or head height on an 8V (with a single tensioner)will retard the timing. Doing the same on a 16V (with double tensioners) has no effect on the timing. It is still possible to put all three locating dowels in, then tension the belt in the normal way.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    2,678

    Default M16 Power

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    Yes it does. Reducing block or head height on an 8V (with a single tensioner)will retard the timing. Doing the same on a 16V (with double tensioners) has no effect on the timing. It is still possible to put all three locating dowels in, then tension the belt in the normal way.
    Thanks Peter.
    The operative word here is "tensioner-s". I wasn't aware that the twin cam engine had two. One on the 'back' side of the belt, the other on the drive side? Is this the norm on PSA engines? My thinking was clouded by FIAT and other twin cam engines both belt or chain who manage with one.

  17. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    brisbane
    Posts
    47

    Default

    Hi Peter,
    What would you expect from the same engine in power gain with one of your stage 2 cam grinds and a programable ecu? You talk about a 3 angle seat grind? Have no idear what this is but did your engine have one done?

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 405T16
    Hi Peter,
    What would you expect from the same engine in power gain with one of your stage 2 cam grinds and a programable ecu? You talk about a 3 angle seat grind? Have no idear what this is but did your engine have one done?
    The Stage II cam makes approx. 100kW at the wheels on the same dyno. That engine had bigger inlet valves, 10.4:1 CR and Haltech ECU.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  19. #19
    Cal
    Cal is offline
    Moderator Cal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    1,624

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    I'd say absolutely no way, Cal! It has to be milled on a milling machine in a workshop; you'd need to wash the block and liners thoroughly before reassembly.

    Good to see you back; there were some worries about you over in Asia with the Tsunami hitting.

    Stuey
    Yeah I didn't really think it could be done. Just thought I'd ask.

    Thanks for your concern mate. We were in Laos when it hit. We were supposed to fly to Koh Phi Phi after Xmas, but obviously changed our plans. A terrible tragedy for so many people. We were deeply saddened.

    Cal.
    1995 Mazda MX5 - 2F Race Car
    1990 Mercedes 300TE
    1990 Mercedes 230E
    1977 Jaguar XJS V12
    1971 Morris Mini 1100K
    1967 Porsche 911S
    1957 Porsche 356A Speedster Replica

  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    brisbane
    Posts
    47

    Default

    How much to do the inlet valves coming from a standard Mi16? Does that stage 2 cam grind give a lumpy feel and will it stall when idling? Do you have to have a slightly lower comp ratio with a programable ECU? And how does it affect the aircon system?

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 405T16
    How much to do the inlet valves coming from a standard Mi16?
    Not sure what that means.

    The other engine just happened to have 10.4:1, std. CR for the UK version.

    The Stage II cam is tad lumpy at idle, but very driveable.

    The ECU will deal with what ever CR you have. You program it to get the right AFR out of the exhaust pipe.

    It doesn't affect the A/C.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  22. #22
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    brisbane
    Posts
    47

    Default

    Sorry Peter I should proof read my messages before I send then. The message was suppose to say how much do the bigger valves cost to do and do you only modify the inlet side. Is that what the 3 seat angle grind is?

    The compression question was in regards to your engine comp of 10.8:1. This ratio would be fine with the bigger cams instead of 10.4:1? If you were to get a stage 1 grind can that cam be re-shaped for stage 2 or do you need a new one?
    How long does it take for you to do. I presume posting would be the best way of transportation

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 405T16
    Sorry Peter I should proof read my messages before I send then. The message was suppose to say how much do the bigger valves cost to do and do you only modify the inlet side. Is that what the 3 seat angle grind is?

    The compression question was in regards to your engine comp of 10.8:1. This ratio would be fine with the bigger cams instead of 10.4:1? If you were to get a stage 1 grind can that cam be re-shaped for stage 2 or do you need a new one?
    How long does it take for you to do. I presume posting would be the best way of transportation
    It's only necessary to do the inlet. The exhaust already flows incrediably well. When fitting the larger inlets, it's possible to cut a nicer 3 angle seat, that flows better than a single 45 deg.cut.

    The Stage I cam is ok with 9.7:1 and up.
    The Stage II cam needs 10.4:1 minimum.
    More compression is obviously better with both, until you reach the limit of the fuel you're using.

    No, there's not enough mat'l on the lobe to reshape a Stage I into a Stage II. The lobes would have to be built up, then reground, approx. $600.

    It takes about a week. Aus. Post is fine. They charge approx. $7.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  24. #24
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    brisbane
    Posts
    47

    Default

    What does raising the compression and bigger cams to do the torque figure?
    Would it be cheaper to just buy a new a cam shaft when you are ready to up grade to a stage 2 grind?
    The UK spec engines with their higher compression was that a result of slightly different block or was it different pistons that made the higher compression?

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,446

    Default

    You don't get anything for nothing in this world. The same applies with torque. There is a slight decrease in low end torque, but an increase in mid range and top end torque. Thus the increase in power. Increasing the CR minimises the loss in low end torque.

    UK engines had different pistons.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •