Another one for the rear drivers. 504 Ti
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Default Another one for the rear drivers. 504 Ti

    So this 504 Ti, that I am now in possession of, has not been started for 2.5 years approx. and just for fun, like, decided to drain engine oil, and what did I find but about 2.5 ltr of coolant before 4.2 ltr glumpy oil.

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    Fellows, what are the likely implications of this?

    Cheers ed ge

  2. #2
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Default

    You'll be replacing liner seals...

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Coolant In Oil

    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller
    So this 504 Ti, that I am now in possession of, has not been started for 2.5 years approx. and just for fun, like, decided to drain engine oil, and what did I find but about 2.5 ltr of coolant before 4.2 ltr glumpy oil.

    Fellows, what are the likely implications of this?

    Cheers ed ge
    Hi Ed,

    My guess is liner seal/seals. Could be a simple head gasket. But the amount of coolant I am fairly confident.

    Was the engine in the car ? I so I would back liner seals for sure -gravity feed from radiator.

    But based on the general consensus about checking engines before fititing which has been the topic of a few recent threads, I think you would wise to to replace liners seals and head gasket.

    Doing this you will get check the big ends bearings and rings/liners.

    Personally, while the engine is this far disassembled I would check the mains as well.

    If they need replacing I would strip the block completely and have it and all other bits hot immersion cleaned. (check that aluminium is OK in the wash you choose)

    Depending on the kms of the engine, which is probably considerable, you may be faced with a bit of work.

    regards


    Rob

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    hmmmmmmmmm

    all that nice coolant sitting in the sump for a period of time

    rip her out and pull it right down

    that glumpy crap will be everywhere in there and it won't be pretty
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Default Ti dilemma

    Ray, thanks, I like your response best, as it was the shortest.

    Oh no Rob and Pugrambo, seals and gasket yes. The rest OMG.

    I was hoping that this might be less hassle than pulling the motor on the '03, but pulling the motor is pulling the motor!

    Can one do the seals without pulling the motor? I suspect not.

    My citroen mate and I where speculating (I know I have spoken against it) that this car is soo clean and soo straight that it might be original 93,000 kms, unlikely we both agree, but 193,000 kls looks more likely than 293,000, just a baby really.

    I haven't the desire or the money for a full rebuild, especially as I'll be up for tyres and most likely brakes pretty quickly, shockers, etc................ damn perishables.

    Any other thoughts appreciated.

    Many thanks ed ge

    Ps Rob, how about the fuel tank idea?

    PPs. Intended a couple of oil flushes for the block and filters before leaving the premises Pugrambo, any use or value?
    Last edited by edgedweller; 15th January 2005 at 05:01 PM. Reason: add extra verbage

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Rebuilding The Engine

    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller
    Ray, thanks, I like your response best, as it was the shortest.

    Oh no Rob and Pugrambo, seals and gasket yes. The rest OMG.

    I was hoping that this might be less hassle than pulling the motor on the '03, but pulling the motor is pulling the motor!

    Can one do the seals without pulling the motor? I suspect not.

    My citroen mate and I where speculating (I know I have spoken against it) that this car is soo clean and soo straight that it might be original 93,000 kms, unlikely we both agree, but 193,000 kls looks more likely than 293,000, just a baby really.

    I haven't the desire or the money for a full rebuild, especially as I'll be up for tyres and most likely brakes pretty quickly, shockers, etc................ damn perishables.

    Any other thoughts appreciated.

    Many thanks ed ge

    Ps Rob, how about the fuel tank idea?

    PPs. Intended a couple of oil flushes for the block and filters before leaving the premises Pugrambo, any use or value?

    Hi Ed,

    To do the liner seals you need to pull the head off , remove the sump and take out the piston conrod assemblies. You can then slip out the liners to get at the seals. (careful not to drop sh!t into the engine)Usually you would check the main bearings at the same time. At this stage you would find the engine need s work.

    If the car is original at even at 293k and has been looked after, with a bit of luck you should get away with -

    1) Hot clean block and clean oil galleries in crank.
    2) Linish crankshaft and hone lip off liner bores.
    3) Replace main and big ends bearings rings
    4) Engine re-build gasket set
    5) I would fit a timing chain and have radiator professionally cleaned
    and make sure the water and oil pumps are A1.

    6) Valve grind
    7) Skim head

    It sounds a lot but if you do the labour yourself it is not too bad.

    " Ps Rob, how about the fuel tank idea?...QUOTE ED " This has me wondering what you mean -It probably relates to an post earlier but can't I make sense of it.

    If you are looking to keep the car it is probably cheaper to fit a 505 motor to it -what a pity TI engines are so rare. But the taller diff will help a bit.

    If you are going to remove / not perservere with the motor I'm definitely interested in it (and would come over and collect from SA) - it would be the ideal basis for the slow burner second stage efi conversion for my 404.

    regards


    Rob

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Default

    Hey Rob, so it's the whole 9 yards on this motor! EH! Oh well!
    I'll not be selling it which ever way it goes.

    In another post, when you we're welding at the back end, I suggested putting in a larger fuel tank. Did a cut & shut on the '03, from 45 to 67 ltr, very happy when touring, price fluctuations at the pump.

    I thought 10 galls a bit short if you're going to do any mileage.

    cheers ed ge

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default I Missed The Post

    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller
    Hey Rob, so it's the whole 9 yards on this motor! EH! Oh well!
    I'll not be selling it which ever way it goes.

    In another post, when you we're welding at the back end, I suggested putting in a larger fuel tank. Did a cut & shut on the '03, from 45 to 67 ltr, very happy when touring, price fluctuations at the pump.

    I thought 10 galls a bit short if you're going to do any mileage.

    cheers ed ge

    I must confess I missed your post concerning fuel tanks.

    Can you give me a pointer to it or advised me again .

    10 gallons is a bit small and I was considering mounting another tank inside .
    With a the 404 the tank is next to spare tyre and little room to extend it beneath the car.

    Have you seen it done ?
    Last edited by robmac; 15th January 2005 at 06:28 PM. Reason: to make sense....

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Little to see in the other post, the idea being to do it now while it's all open.

    In the '03 the extended tank means I've to relocate the spare, was going to stand it up ala XD Falcoon but the repairer baulked and it now just sits in the boot or behind the drivers seat.

    Generally, I'm more interested in how much fuel I have on board than where the spare is.

    If your prepared to relocate the spare either ala X Falcon or just let it float you might consider joining two '04 tanks together, locate and fix as dictated.

    Although another tank might do just as well.

    cheers ed ge

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i have done liner seals without removing the engine

    not overly hard but it takes time but you do also save yourself the time in taking the engine out and putting it back in

    in regards to liner seals, if they are original then i'd say the engine has between 120-150k on it or they may have gone early but generally they don't last longer with the earlier XN engines

    be sure to lap the liners into the block when you are putting it back together but if i were you i would be pulling the engine down and ensuring all the gunk is out of the block and other associated oil galleries
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Liner Seals With Engine In -is This Possible ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    i have done liner seals without removing the engine

    not overly hard but it takes time but you do also save yourself the time in taking the engine out and putting it back in

    in regards to liner seals, if they are original then i'd say the engine has between 120-150k on it or they may have gone early but generally they don't last longer with the earlier XN engines

    be sure to lap the liners into the block when you are putting it back together but if i were you i would be pulling the engine down and ensuring all the gunk is out of the block and other associated oil galleries

    I was under the impression that you could not get the sump off with the engine in the car.

    You must have ball-jointed knuckles to get at things with the xmember there too.

    For my money the engine comes out and get work in on "civilised" work bench/engine stand.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac
    I was under the impression that you could not get the sump off with the engine in the car.

    You must have ball-jointed knuckles to get at things with the xmember there too.

    For my money the engine comes out and get work in on "civilised" work bench/engine stand.

    i did one in a shed in Young years ago

    just undo the mounts off the crossmember and drop it down while holding the engine up and take the sump off and remove the big ends

    put the cross member back up and go for your life

    taking the engine out is the prefered method in this case thougth as i can see the mess inside it from here
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Default Oh woes

    Thanks for directions to date rob and pugrambo, it's definitely a park and do in the future now. Such a pity, this car was a real find otherwise, even if it is Trak Yellow.

    will keep you posted of any developments.

    cheers ed ge

  14. #14
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Personally, I don't like doing jobs like this with the engine at 45 degrees...

    I jack up the front of the engine, take off the sump and undo the engine/bellhousing bolts. I then prise the engine out far enough to just clear the dowels and turn it until it's upright.

    Then I put some timber across under the very front of the block to hold it up vertical but allow the crank to turn. No lifting the engine out, it's like it's on a workbench anyway there and when it's time to measure up the liner protrusion it's much easier than on a slant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Personally, I don't like doing jobs like this with the engine at 45 degrees...

    I jack up the front of the engine, take off the sump and undo the engine/bellhousing bolts. I then prise the engine out far enough to just clear the dowels and turn it until it's upright.

    Then I put some timber across under the very front of the block to hold it up vertical but allow the crank to turn. No lifting the engine out, it's like it's on a workbench anyway there and when it's time to measure up the liner protrusion it's much easier than on a slant.
    5 more minutes and the engine would be out!
    Graham

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default iIN SITU REPAIRS

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Personally, I don't like doing jobs like this with the engine at 45 degrees...

    I jack up the front of the engine, take off the sump and undo the engine/bellhousing bolts. I then prise the engine out far enough to just clear the dowels and turn it until it's upright.

    Then I put some timber across under the very front of the block to hold it up vertical but allow the crank to turn. No lifting the engine out, it's like it's on a workbench anyway there and when it's time to measure up the liner protrusion it's much easier than on a slant.
    When I didn't have a workshop and had to work outside, I used a chain block and three pieces of 5x4 hardwood with a bolt thru them at the top. This was then opened to a tripod with the chain block at at the top.

    Can't see why so many members don't take the engine out for such a major job. It so hard doing engine rebuilds in the car. If it is roadside emergencies that's different.

    Do people relish the difficulty of the work ??? Like s*x in a hammock standing up!

  17. #17
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    when i built the 604 engine i built the bottom end and put that in the car then built it up in situ

    i found it easier to build the engine in the car than i would have been to build it up and then get it in there

    on the blokes 504 i did liners seals for it was quite easy to do it all in the car

    the car was another one that had only done around 120k

    no standing the engine up was needed as the angle isn't too bad to do the job and as Graham said, by the time you did that you may as well pull it out
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  18. #18
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I did that when I had no lifting gear (roadside repair...) and no engine stand...

    But I found that, apart from having to fold up the battery shelf and removing one of the engine mounts it was easy and convenient. I really do have a dislike for assembling the liners on the 45 degree angle as it's such a critical part of building the engine.

    True, it took as long as lifting the engine out. But I had nowhere to put it when it was out... and it obviated the need to line up the clutch on reinstallation.

    As for simple tripods... I have absolutely perfected them...

    Three pieces of 3 x 2 timber... either very solid pine or some hardwood... each about 8' long. One has a piece of 1" steel tube screwed to the top of it so that it protrudes about 2', the others have angle iron screwed on the top of them and protruding so they're the same length.

    Drill a half inch hole through the angle irons and the tube, slip in a rear shock bolt and you have a nice lightweight, dismantleable if necessary, and very usable tripod. I've made a couple like this, lifted the whole rear end of a 504 I was stripping with one once.

    Also I use a winch rather than a chain block. Lighter and more adaptable.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Taking Engines Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    I did that when I had no lifting gear (roadside repair...) and no engine stand...

    But I found that, apart from having to fold up the battery shelf and removing one of the engine mounts it was easy and convenient. I really do have a dislike for assembling the liners on the 45 degree angle as it's such a critical part of building the engine.

    True, it took as long as lifting the engine out. But I had nowhere to put it when it was out... and it obviated the need to line up the clutch on reinstallation.

    As for simple tripods... I have absolutely perfected them...

    Three pieces of 3 x 2 timber... either very solid pine or some hardwood... each about 8' long. One has a piece of 1" steel tube screwed to the top of it so that it protrudes about 2', the others have angle iron screwed on the top of them and protruding so they're the same length.

    Drill a half inch hole through the angle irons and the tube, slip in a rear shock bolt and you have a nice lightweight, dismantleable if necessary, and very usable tripod. I've made a couple like this, lifted the whole rear end of a 504 I was stripping with one once.

    Also I use a winch rather than a chain block. Lighter and more adaptable.

    Hi Ray,

    So my hunch was correct above engine works being a roadside repair.

    Your tripod sounds a good system. When I was renting, whilst studying at RMIT I stole floor joists from the derilict laudry from the house to make the tripod . Mine simply used a single bolt, a shackle and three bits of waterpipe as peg to foot the tripod.

    Today... I have a different system which is much safer and stronger..
    see image... The little chain block is quite light and handles 1000kg.and only cost $79.00 !
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Another one for the rear drivers. 504 Ti-000_0082.jpg   Another one for the rear drivers. 504 Ti-000_0083.jpg  

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Default 504Ti

    This is going backwards from the last few posts, but have you considered just buying an XN1 complete motor and fitting the Ti head to it. I may be off the pace here as I'm not very familiar with the Ti motor, but from memory the heads should be a clean swap. You then have to deal with the induction/injection side of things but I'm told they go well if fitted with twin Webers. Correct me if I'm wrong here Ray...

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Default lateral baby

    good thought to the max, so my next question is,

    if my xn motor in the station wagon is blowing lots of water out the exhaust pipe is that a head gasket problem only and could I marry the two motors together with minimum fuss?

    Or could my 1800 motor take the injected head (silly)?

    In hope ed ge

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Siamese Engines

    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller
    good thought to the max, so my next question is,

    if my xn motor in the station wagon is blowing lots of water out the exhaust pipe is that a head gasket problem only and could I marry the two motors together with minimum fuss?

    Or could my 1800 motor take the injected head (silly)?

    In hope ed ge

    Ray will probably confirm this. But as far as I know the TI head should physically go straight on the XN motor, what compression ratio you end up with I'm not sure. The TI head should also fit the 1800 motor, since the 2l and the 1800 only differ stroke (I'm pretty sure)

    But the main reason for the post is not to advise compatibility of motor bits, Ray et al know better than me, but is to suggest you consider fitting the megasquirt injection. With a TI head you have the injector set up and throttle body. Add a MAP sensor, oxygen sensor, coolant temperature sensor (the XN engine has a spare hole) and fit Nissan injectors and you are up and driving with EFI. Have a look at the megasquirt site. The computer unit is home built.

    It would be so much better than carbys in my opinion

  23. #23
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    the TI head will fit onto any 2L XN engine so that's not a problem

    i would advise not to run webers on it as the inlet ports are too big for carbies but it can and has been done many times, even i have done it

    stick to the TI system or put megasquirt in with some work involved in the process

    so if you can find another engine then swap the heads over and off you go but beware the cams are slightly different

    if the water is pumping out the rear end it has a major head gasket leak

    i looked at a 504 once that had water flying out the back when trying to start it, needless to say it wouldn't start
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  24. #24
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac
    Ray will probably confirm this. But as far as I know the TI head should physically go straight on the XN motor, what compression ratio you end up with I'm not sure. The TI head should also fit the 1800 motor, since the 2l and the 1800 only differ stroke (I'm pretty sure)

    But the main reason for the post is not to advise compatibility of motor bits, Ray et al know better than me, but is to suggest you consider fitting the megasquirt injection. With a TI head you have the injector set up and throttle body. Add a MAP sensor, oxygen sensor, coolant temperature sensor (the XN engine has a spare hole) and fit Nissan injectors and you are up and driving with EFI. Have a look at the megasquirt site. The computer unit is home built.

    It would be so much better than carbys in my opinion

    2L came with 2 comp ratios

    8.3 and 8.8

    all the TI's and earlier 2L engines had 8.3

    where 8.8 came into them i am not sure but Graham should know
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  25. #25
    Banned orestes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac
    Ray will probably confirm this. But as far as I know the TI head should physically go straight on the XN motor, what compression ratio you end up with I'm not sure. The TI head should also fit the 1800 motor, since the 2l and the 1800 only differ stroke (I'm pretty sure)

    But the main reason for the post is not to advise compatibility of motor bits, Ray et al know better than me, but is to suggest you consider fitting the megasquirt injection. With a TI head you have the injector set up and throttle body. Add a MAP sensor, oxygen sensor, coolant temperature sensor (the XN engine has a spare hole) and fit Nissan injectors and you are up and driving with EFI. Have a look at the megasquirt site. The computer unit is home built.

    It would be so much better than carbys in my opinion

    why bother, if you can actually understand the KF injection system (i don't know how anyone can't but a lot of people don't) they are in my opinion the best mechanical injection setup i've seen.

    i'd leave it as it is personally

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