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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Default Stand up that motor

    G'day all,

    have just done a search through the threads and find no mention of standing up the slant motors to fit into an '03, some of you must have tried such entertaining things before, any hints, comments, broad outline appreciated.

    Cheers ed ge

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  2. #2
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    The Bianchis in Adelaide have done it...

    Ugly though it was, it worked. The bellhousing was a makeup of two, each machined in a lathe around the circular engine end, with mating spigot and counterbore to some small extent, then welded together.

    I have no idea what they did with sump and oil pickup, but the engine did sit very high because of conflict with the crossmember in the 203. The manifold adaptor needed to get the carby back upright was ugliest of all.

    To obviate the oil pump issue, others have fitted a Kugelfischer timing chest and adapted Datsun 180B/1600/200B oil pumps onto that and driven them from the Kugelfischer drive within the timing chest. This would be neat enough, I should think, with oil lines to and from an adaptor on the filter mount.

    There's more than one of them running around like this, by the way.

    To be honest, I wouldn't mind standing the motor up straight in a 504... or a 404. Get some space to work in the steering/exhaust area, but you lose some starter motor access I suppose.

  3. #3
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller
    G'day all,

    have just done a search through the threads and find no mention of standing up the slant motors to fit into an '03, some of you must have tried such entertaining things before, any hints, comments, broad outline appreciated.

    Cheers ed ge

    i can think of countless 03's that have been done over the years

    the engines fit better in the 203 than the 403 as there seems to be more room in the 203 engine bay

    the 403 has the air intakes on either side of the engine bay that get in the way

    adaptor plates are the easiest way to go to put the engines in and yes Ray is right in using a datsun oil pump and dry sumping the engine and it looks neat

    inlet manifolds are much easier to make as they can be straight

    as for the reason 404/504/505 engines are at the angle they are is to balance the weight across the front of the car and also to obtain a lower bonnet line so standing the motor up in one of these would be a negative but in a 203/403 it's fine

    mind you they were designed for a country that sat the driver on the other side of the car so out here we have all the weight on one side
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

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    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Default upright

    Thanks guys, that clears the way to some degree.

    Bit concerned about the weight thing you mentioned PR, might tend to understeer around left hand corners with me in it these days.

    Will give it some more thought,

    Cheers ed ge

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    there is a bloke in know in Sydney that has a 203 with a 2L 504 motor virtually mid mounted in the car and upright

    it sits back around 12" from where the original sat

    the firewall was remade to fit around the engine and of course driveline shortened to accomodate for the new engine position

    when sitting in the car you can feel that you are further back in the car and it has the centre pillar pretty much level with your head

    i don't think the car has been on the road for a few years now but i am sure he still has it and last time i was in the car i was very impressed with the way it went and the way it handled

    it was built for the Wynns safari in the 80's



    now then the paint on the car is still as good as it was when it was done as it was painted in i think acran (sp?) or some other poly type paint

    last time i saw the car it was parked up in his workshop but i would love to see him get back around to putting it back on the road
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  6. #6
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by pugrambo
    .....adaptor plates are the easiest way to go to put the engines in and yes Ray is right in using a datsun oil pump and dry sumping the engine and it looks neat.....
    I never mentioned dry sump... and if you wanted a dry sump you would need yet another oil pump. And lots of lines...

    Regarding engine height, the original carby base sits about 350mm above the crank centreline, yet the top of the inlet ports with the engine mounted vertically is about 270mm... the carburettor in total sits about 110mm higher than the rocker cover.

    So you're right, engine height is not an issue, packaging is.

    For left hand drive, the whole setup was pretty good, only the exhaust system below the head and to the right of the engine, and all that space on the left to fit in steering, battery, ancillaries, starter and maybe alternator (and this wasn't too bad under the exhaust side in the TIs.

    On 404s, especially, it was a real drag in RHD applications, putting the steering column and gearchange into the tight space below the exhaust making for real issues, while there was a huge vacancy on the left hand side.

    And, as you say, the balance with only the driver on board.

    I'd disagree, though, with the adaptor plate. A cut and shut on the bellhousing is neat and apparently strong enough, and keeps the length of the fitment right for the car.
    Last edited by Ray Bell; 8th January 2005 at 12:16 PM.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    just about every 03 i have seen with a slant motor placed upright in the car has had an adaptor plate used

    none of them i have ever heard of having any dramas with the longevity of them nor a problem with the having an extra 10mm in the driveline
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I can understand that, but sometimes the 10mm might make a difference...

    Apart from that, a competent machinist could do the cut and shut more readily, I would think. But either way will obviously work.

    Is that Steve Dixon's car?

  9. #9
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    I can understand that, but sometimes the 10mm might make a difference...

    Apart from that, a competent machinist could do the cut and shut more readily, I would think. But either way will obviously work.

    Is that Steve Dixon's car?

    not steves car

    steve was well and truelly into 504's by this stage



    just have to love the advertising on the back of the car, not bad for a fitter/machinist
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by pugrambo
    .....just have to love the advertising on the back of the car, not bad for a fitter/machinist
    What advertising on the back of the car?

    And what happened to Jenny?

  11. #11
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    What advertising on the back of the car?

    And what happened to Jenny?

    on the rear guard

    from what i heard she left Steve

    I'll talk to you later on about that

    I haven't seen Steve for around 10-12 years now

    i think he is still in the NSW car club but i can't be certain about that but i'd dare say i could find out if need be
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  12. #12
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    'Jenny' was the Humber he was running in these events...

    And I still don't see what's wrong with his rear guard advertising.

  13. #13
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    'Jenny' was the Humber he was running in these events...

    And I still don't see what's wrong with his rear guard advertising.

    i did hear something about the humber bieng sold or bieng returned to where it came from or something like that
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default Stand up that motor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    'Jenny' was the Humber he was running in these events...

    And I still don't see what's wrong with his rear guard advertising.
    Ray, I'm surprised, no, that is my normal look. Surprised that you with your SIMCA background haven't picked up the spelling of "Montlhery" on the flank of the 504!

    Back to the subject. On standing the 404 etc engine upright, is there a problem with the oil pump pickup? If so wouldn't it be simpler to modify this and maybe the sump rather than the long winded but impressive external pump idea?
    I'm aware that other problems exist but this is the first one I could think of.

  15. #15
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Both my Simca background and my motor racing background told me immediately that the spelling of 'Montlhery' was wrong... but that wasn't an issue...

    I believe that the problem with the oil pickup is more than the pickup... the oil pump itself would be right where the crossmember has to be.

    Maybe that's why the car pictured has the engine moved back?

    The Datsun pump mounts easily, though, and is readily available. That's for an 03... of course you could just modify the pickup to do this in a 404 or 504.

  16. #16
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    the engine was moved back to put the weight closer to the centre of the car

    went like a rocket and handled extremly well

    this is the same car that had the toyota pistons in it

    suring thr Wynns safari though the car suffered a burnt out clutch and retired

    it had a 404 clutch in it and the thought was it would have been ok but it wasn't good enough
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  17. #17
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    So what engine was it?

    The 404 clutch is in the 504, which is heavier than the 203...

  18. #18
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    So what engine was it?

    The 404 clutch is in the 504, which is heavier than the 203...

    2L engine

    had 404 clutch

    clutch didn't handle it

    all in the 203
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    2L engine

    had 404 clutch

    clutch didn't handle it

    all in the 203
    Late 404 clutch is identical to 504.
    The standing upright of 504 engines is a pretty nasty idea, a Holden engine is a much neater and easier fit. The STI/GTI engine is worse, however and requires major compromises to make it fit.
    I believe a Datsun L series would fit quite easily and this has the advantage of heaps of tuning know how being available. Before you start calling me a heretic, my 203 will have the proper 1600cc TN3 (with webers) engine from my 403.
    Phil Torode pioneered the use of a Datsun oil pump and no, it is NOT a dry sump!
    The Bianchi car used a shortened three bearing 404 pump (much the same concept as a 403 pump) I believe, much less work if this is true.
    The 203 has more room then the 403 as the engine sits further back from the front cross member.
    That 504 rally car is very low to be about to tackle the Safari!

    Graham

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    That 504 rally car is very low to be about to tackle the Safari!

    Graham
    ol' steve wasn't a bad fitter/machinist but when it came to engineering something for a rally well, the pic speaks for itself

    i was waiting for someone to pick up on that

    there were a couple of other 504's in there as well but they well and truelly had ground clearance and they made it through

    the car that steve was driving didn't make it very far from what i recall
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  21. #21
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    But maybe the clutch was okay?

    I recall that his Humber was heavy as anything...

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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    ol' steve wasn't a bad fitter/machinist but when it came to engineering something for a rally well, the pic speaks for itself

    i was waiting for someone to pick up on that

    there were a couple of other 504's in there as well but they well and truelly had ground clearance and they made it through

    the car that steve was driving didn't make it very far from what i recall
    If this was 1985 I don't think any of the Peugeots made it through the huge bog on the first day.
    Jim Taylor came back a couple of years later in an extensively modified car and huge clearance. I believe he finished most (all?) of the course that year.
    Graham

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    can i please ask a few questions as i have never heard of standing up an engine and wanted to know
    1-why do it
    2 benifits
    3 failings.
    im very interested in reading the previous posts and would also like to say that the colour scheme and paint job on the 504 pictured is very nice and very much like the peugeot/talbot colours used on the 205 t16 's.-BAZZ

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazgti
    can i please ask a few questions as i have never heard of standing up an engine and wanted to know
    1-why do it
    2 benifits
    3 failings.
    im very interested in reading the previous posts and would also like to say that the colour scheme and paint job on the 504 pictured is very nice and very much like the peugeot/talbot colours used on the 205 t16 's.-BAZZ

    203's and 403's have upright engines in them

    to get anything bigger in there and to keep it pug you need to go later model which then you need either a 404 or 504 motor, both of these motors lay over at 45deg

    there is limited room the engine bay of an 03 so the later model motor need to be stood up vertical from it's natural 45deg angle to fit into the 03 engine bay

    the benefits are you get a larger engine into a smaller car (bit like a 604 engine into a 504 )

    as for failings well that's a personal preference in my opinion

    you do end up with a bit more weight in the front end

    there is less room to work around the engine in the car, especially if it is a 2L in a 403. 203's aren't so bad

    of course more power means you need to upgrade brakes but they need that anyway especially 203's

    another conversion that was carried out was a holden engine into a 203
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  25. #25
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Although, if you really wanted to, you could do it all with a 203C block...

    They bore out big enough to fit Vanguard liners, and with a bit of crank grinding you can fit a Vanguard crank. That gives you 2-litres, but you're a bit shy on valve area, so you get a Jaguar XK head, cut the two combustion chambers out of the middle and weld it back together, make new cams, make up a timing chest to run the timing chain up to the cams and so on.

    A bit of a task, but at least you can keep the original engine mountings.

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