205 koni hight ?
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
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    Default 205 koni hight ?

    ive put the koni yellow sports adjustables on the front and rear of the 205.my question is it seems to have made the car slightly higher ,with more of a gap between tyre and guard.on front and rear,not a real lot but it is noticable,is this normal?.
    im not too woried as its same front and rear but would like to hear from someone with them on their car.
    is it because they are new and will level out a bit with use or is the main reason people lower the car?.
    ive no complaints about the preformance of the shocks in fact was surprised at how firm yet still able absorb alot of bumps.-BAZZ

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    Fellow Frogger! ruckus's Avatar
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    Think they're meant to take about 1000km to fully settle and 'wear-in', but the difference may be because your old ones were, well, old. I know you're not supposed to lower the car until they're worn in but I'm sure Ray Bell, Parry or any of the other usual suspects will be able to help you out.
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    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruckus
    Think they're meant to take about 1000km to fully settle and 'wear-in', but the difference may be because your old ones were, well, old. I know you're not supposed to lower the car until they're worn in but I'm sure Ray Bell, Parry or any of the other usual suspects will be able to help you out.
    yeah thanks mate,i was told similar and thought that they may drop slightly.the rears i could understand cause the old ones were knackered but i put new sachs in the front about two months ago and they didnt raise the height.[but felt to soft compared to rear konis.]
    it also could be that the konis are firmer and dont sag with car weight???.
    ta for the reply-BAZZ

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    Quote Originally Posted by bazgti
    yeah thanks mate,i was told similar and thought that they may drop slightly.the rears i could understand cause the old ones were knackered but i put new sachs in the front about two months ago and they didnt raise the height.[but felt to soft compared to rear konis.]
    it also could be that the konis are firmer and dont sag with car weight???.
    ta for the reply-BAZZ
    Unless they are gas they won't affect the height of the car, how could they?
    If they aren't gas the only thing that could have happened is that the shocker or suspension bolts were done up with the suspension in droop condition.
    Always do up the shocker and suspension bushes with the car sitting on its wheels and after having pushed the car for a couple of meters to make sure the suspension has settled to its normal height.
    This won't be a problem in the FRONT of a 205 unless you have removed the lower wishbone from the subframe.
    Graham

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    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
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    they are actually a comination of gas and oil.they are twin tube low pressure gas-hydraulic shock absorbers.they work with a quantity of gas in the top of the oil resevoir thus the intereor damper is under rekativily low pressure.[koni external adjustable yellows]
    i watched him put them on and he did lower the car to tighten up the top nuts from the strut.
    maybe they will settle-BAZZ

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    Quote Originally Posted by bazgti
    they are actually a comination of gas and oil.they are twin tube low pressure gas-hydraulic shock absorbers.they work with a quantity of gas in the top of the oil resevoir thus the intereor damper is under rekativily low pressure.[koni external adjustable yellows]
    i watched him put them on and he did lower the car to tighten up the top nuts from the strut.
    maybe they will settle-BAZZ
    All gas shockers are really oil but with added gas pressure.
    They probably won't settle, this is one of the problems with gas shockers.
    On a related subject I lowered the rear of my Si today, after much effort (and expense after buying a slide hammer) to remove the rusted in torsion bars. Handles and looks much better. The rear torsion bars are 18.5 mm, the same as for the GTI. The difference must be in the antiroll bar.
    Graham

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    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    The gas inside most shocks (as far as I know) is nitrogen.

    The gas is used to eliminate the bubbling of the oil in the shock. This bubbling can lead to foaming and basically suspending air inside the oil. Allowing it to heat up and effectively become crappy.

    This is my understanding with relation to motorcycle shocks that have oil/gas charged shocks.

    Just my 2

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    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    All gas shockers are really oil but with added gas pressure.
    They probably won't settle, this is one of the problems with gas shockers.
    On a related subject I lowered the rear of my Si today, after much effort (and expense after buying a slide hammer) to remove the rusted in torsion bars. Handles and looks much better. The rear torsion bars are 18.5 mm, the same as for the GTI. The difference must be in the antiroll bar.
    Graham
    you should of reached out mate,i can get slide hammers and panel beating gear for a day or so with a bit of notice.but i suppose you have one now so you can go to town.
    i might drop the front and back eventually.is there any other lowering springs for the front than the eibach set-up or something not quite as stiff.
    and how many labour hours would someone charge for dropping the torsion bar if it aint rusted in-BAZZ

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    Quote Originally Posted by bazgti
    you should of reached out mate,i can get slide hammers and panel beating gear for a day or so with a bit of notice.but i suppose you have one now so you can go to town.
    i might drop the front and back eventually.is there any other lowering springs for the front than the eibach set-up or something not quite as stiff.
    and how many labour hours would someone charge for dropping the torsion bar if it aint rusted in-BAZZ
    I could probably do it in a couple of hours, but give me a little while to regain enthusiasm!
    Actually I don't think there's any need to lower a GTI, the one I had recently was spot on, all it needed was the quicker (power) steering. I would like to compare the GTI and Si front spring rates, just by counting the turns and measuring the wire diameter.

    Graham

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    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    unless Koni makes "Koni Yellow" and "koni yellow" for different cars (unlikely !) they are purely an oil shock. No gas. I have taken two apart just recently. They are rebuildable ungassed units.

    your height difference migh be related to springs needing to settle or like it was pointed out the bushes have been tighteneed at fully extended position. Springs regulate your height, it would take one hell of a gas shock to raise your car.
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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Koni Yellows can be gas or no gas design. The ones for a 205 are of the gas type. The ones for a Gemini (I played with a few series race cars) are not gas filled.
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    There was a time when Koni made not gas-pressurised dampers at all... but times have changed.

    Their Formula 1 dampers of the seventies were all non-gas, and into the eighties, despite the pressures of marketing of 'gas shocks' as the be-all end-all they remained at the head of the F1 grids without gas.

    Spax, in the meantime, found a gas-filling technique that meant their dampers were hardly altered at all. It wasn't Nitrogen, but some kind of inert gas that was supplied to them (from America, I think) in little limp bags. The bags were inserted in the outer tube and the shocks closed up.

    Apparently they expanded exponentially under heat to pressurise the dampers.

    One real benefit that 'gas' shocks have is that they can be built with only one tube. This means that the working cylinder, and in particular the piston, can be larger. You displace more oil with movement of these and therefore you can make a piston with greater control capacity.

    But that's nothing new. Teleflo was a brand of single-tube damper made in Africa somewhere. They had a simple rubber (or neoprene or something) diaphragm at the bottom and this took the place of what the gas does... allow for the displacement of oil by the movement of the piston rod into the damper body.

    I think that was a pretty smart way to make a damper myself... no gas to leak, no additional pressure on seals, less expensive. But I have no real idea of how effective their design team were in making (and testing) dampers for different cars.

    To the issue at hand... yes, there might be a fractional lifting of the car. Or, more to the point, a resistance to settling when stopped. But it should be very small. You might also have a high level of seal friction with dampers this new that will resist settling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tekkie
    unless Koni makes "Koni Yellow" and "koni yellow" for different cars (unlikely !) they are purely an oil shock. No gas. I have taken two apart just recently. They are rebuildable ungassed units.

    your height difference migh be related to springs needing to settle or like it was pointed out the bushes have been tighteneed at fully extended position. Springs regulate your height, it would take one hell of a gas shock to raise your car.
    On a car like a 205 GTI with fairly stiff springs there will only be a small increase in height but in a 504 the lift is quite noticeable, enough to cause positive camber problems on the front and for the rear suspension to top out on corners.
    In Bazz's case it wont be the bushes unless the lower control arms were rmoved and refitted with the strut units, the top bolt will have no affect.
    A funny thing is that when a DeCarbon brand gas shocker expires the car will be raised by about 40mm!
    Graham

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    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    I could probably do it in a couple of hours, but give me a little while to regain enthusiasm!
    Actually I don't think there's any need to lower a GTI, the one I had recently was spot on, all it needed was the quicker (power) steering. I would like to compare the GTI and Si front spring rates, just by counting the turns and measuring the wire diameter.

    Graham
    look it tell you what ,when you regain your enthusiesm give me a ring in 0418126691.
    ill give you a drive of the car and see what you reckon about its handling ect.you can also do the spring thingamajiga.
    i was toying with the idea of dropping the front and rear as it looks so damn good on these cars but dont want to throw out the positive dynamics of the steering and make it heavy on the wheel to turn.also i dont like the really over stiff springs that people use to lower.
    this is a personal taste thing i suppose.the things firm enough as it is with the konis ,i dony want to make it harder.-BAZZ

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    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
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    i was thinking[always a dangerous exersize]with the extra claerance i can now really rice it up with bigarse 19'rims or some shit.that would be really uumm ,uumm,uuhhhmmm.stupid i think!!!
    but seriously.what difference in handling do bigger wheels give.better or worse?
    just knowledge for its own sake.im not gonna put big wheels on,i presume it would make the steering heavier.???????!!!!!!-bazz

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    Quote Originally Posted by bazgti
    i was thinking[always a dangerous exersize]with the extra claerance i can now really rice it up with bigarse 19'rims or some shit.that would be really uumm ,uumm,uuhhhmmm.stupid i think!!!
    but seriously.what difference in handling do bigger wheels give.better or worse?
    just knowledge for its own sake.im not gonna put big wheels on,i presume it would make the steering heavier.???????!!!!!!-bazz
    Not always, if the car has a lot of camber the stiffer tyre may not touch the ground over all the tread. Plenty of times I have had cars that have heavier steering with narrow tyres, a 404 rally car comes to mind.
    When Peugeot went to 15inch wheels for the 1.9GTI they kept the same width, 185 by 60 to 185 by 55. The car doesn't have enough weight to make a wide tyre work properly.
    Graham

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    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    Not always, if the car has a lot of camber the stiffer tyre may not to uch the ground over all the tread. Plenty of times I have had cars that have heavier steering w i th narrow tyres, a 404 rally car comes to mind.
    When Peugeot went to 15inch wheels for the 1.9GTI they kept the same width, 185 by 60 to 185 by 55. The car doesn't have enough weight to make a wide tyre work properly.
    Graham
    thanks graham,what about 16' rims with low profile tyres compared to 15" rims with standard tyres presuming similar tyre compounds? and diameter and width measurements,will they behave in similar fashion.?
    i noticed when reading about wrc cars that they use a bigger rim/tyre set-up on tarmac rally[17"or 16'- low profile] than when they do dirt rallys.[14' dirt rally tyre]
    would this also factor in the harder run suspension on tarmac which has less wheel - suspension travel and rubbing issues ,than with dirt which would be less firm with more wheel travel using smaller wheels for extra travel?.-BAZZ

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore
    Koni Yellows can be gas or no gas design. The ones for a 205 are of the gas type. The ones for a Gemini (I played with a few series race cars) are not gas filled.
    I stand corrected. something you learn every day.
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    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore
    Koni Yellows can be gas or no gas design. The ones for a 205 are of the gas type. The ones for a Gemini (I played with a few series race cars) are not gas filled.
    actually to be precise the ones for the 205 are a combination of gas and oil.in the resevoir they use gas in the top of the chamber which compressors the oil when it is forced up there by the piston in the shocker pushing down a cylander which forces the oil into a valve at the bottom of the resevoir and into the gas filled resevoir.
    they have truly changed for the better my little pug!!!.-BAZZ

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    Glad you're happy with them Bazz... wonder who's going to be the next one to go this route?

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    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Glad you're happy with them Bazz... wonder who's going to be the next one to go this route?

    mmmaaattteeee.not just happy but extatic,they really do completly change the way the car drives and handles.a completly different car now.much better accelration,less rattles and noises.takes on heavy bumps like you wouldnt beleive.corners like a ferrari.stops like it has new brakes .feels far more solid than ever.
    i better watch out though as it keeps spuring me on to go faster.
    went for a balwyn backstrret rally with a mate at 4 oclock in the morning last night.[stupid i know,but as homer says-whatareyagonnado!!!!]
    he has a clio sport and reckon my car is better to drive than his new clio sport.
    he is thinking of konis for his clio.couldnt beleive the cornering and how hard i drive it into and out of corners without tyre squeal or traction loss.
    he said if he did that with the clio with the esp off it would have spun out mid corner.
    to be consice-I THINK EVERYONE WHO OWNS A 205 SHOULD DO IT=bazz

  22. #22
    Tadpole WiZE's Avatar
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    yeh they really do make the 205 a better drive.

    ive got koni yellows too. when you crank them up to "hard", the car corners like its on rails!

    very worthwhile mod.
    Jazz Blue S1 mod 205 GTi

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    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WiZE
    yeh they really do make the 205 a better drive.

    ive got koni yellows too. when you crank them up to "hard", the car corners like its on rails!

    very worthwhile mod.

    absafarginloutly.mine are on the lowest setting and are still very good.still feels like its on rails.im going to hava a go at harding them up when they do thye 1000k brake-in period.
    unfortunatly it makes the body twist and movement more noticible so now its time for strut braces upper and lower.front and back.
    sparco braces are about $180 each but the omp braces are about $110 each ,im not sure what the sparco braces are made from but the opm are steel.-BAZZZ

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