m16 engine in 505?
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default m16 engine in 505?

    hi just joined. i,ve got a 1988 505 gr and it handles and rides brilliantly but it lacks the kind of urge i am looking for. can i drop an m16 lump in it and if so what mods will i need?

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I can see big problems trying to fit an East west engine that is front wheel drive to a car with a North south rear wheel drive model. I'd be inclined to suggest you look at trying to find a few more horses to put under the bonnet of what you already have.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Do some searches in the UK. There's some rear wheel drive kit cars over there with Mi16 engines.

    From the 205 site:

    "I'm sure I recall Pell using an old Audi 80 box on their genesis kit car.

    Try a search for Pell Genesis on Google."
    Last edited by PeterT; 20th December 2004 at 10:47 PM.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  4. #4
    Tadpole
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    well apart from turbocharging which i think would overstress the engine what else can i do to get a substantial increase in horses and more importantly torque?

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    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    audi 80? Mine is fwd NS.....maybe the kit car was rear engined/rear driven....???



    cheers


    dino

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Default more power 505

    Adrianne

    easiest, fastest, cheapest power will come from supercharging your existing engine.

    Cheers ed ge

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    aparently from what i've heard the MI16 will bolt up to a BA10/5, giving you the rear wheel drive soloution baring drilling a few holes in the bellhousing to link it all up properly as its missing a few , but mostly it fits... this is all what i have heard, in theory it should be "relatively" straight forward... that is apart from things like pipeing facing the wrong way (i would imagine) do a search of the board, it has been discused a few times... aprt from that, you could find a turbo charged lump from over seas which will produce about 180hp, or maybe a V6, or GTI engine ??

    i also beleive there is/was somone on this forum that owned an MI16 powerd 504... so it is entirely posible
    Last edited by orestes; 21st December 2004 at 04:23 AM.

  8. #8
    Tadpole
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    thanks for all the advice i think i'll probably go the supercharging route. any thoughts out there on the best way to do it?

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    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Default supercharging

    Japanese wreckers, blower from 4agze corolla or similar, attached to mounting bolted to fuel pump housing on block, swinging like altenator. Attach gates pulley to crank pulley, devise jockey wheel setup between waterpump mount and blower mount, add carburation and big bore exhaust.
    Badaboom. 10, 20, 30, 40.....% increase in horse power and lovely torque figures too. Now do search of this tech forum, local library, the net, automotive book shops etc. to read and understand supercharging, find friendly mechanical engineer and go for it. Remember less boost is more longevity for motor, be realistic. Cost approx. $1,000 AUD if your clever.

    Cheers ed ge

  10. #10
    Tadpole
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    thanks ed ge i think i'll go for it. its kinda expensive though so i'll do it'll probably be a while before i can enjoy that extra power. any ideas on anything simpler(read cheaper) and more immediate i can do in the meantime?

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Default more power

    Hey Adrianne, they're are plenty of people on this forum that know much more than me about warming these engines up. Go to tech section, drop down search bar, type in 505 motor and behold! Personally I'd do the good extractor system, rejetting the carb, cold air intake thing, should get you a few more ponies. Then you could also do the cam, compression and carbie thing, then the lighten and balance everything thing. Even the lower ratio diff thing. Stay safe.

    Cheers edgedweller

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Super Charging 505 Xn Engines

    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller
    Japanese wreckers, blower from 4agze corolla or similar, attached to mounting bolted to fuel pump housing on block, swinging like altenator. Attach gates pulley to crank pulley, devise jockey wheel setup between waterpump mount and blower mount, add carburation and big bore exhaust.
    Badaboom. 10, 20, 30, 40.....% increase in horse power and lovely torque figures too. Now do search of this tech forum, local library, the net, automotive book shops etc. to read and understand supercharging, find friendly mechanical engineer and go for it. Remember less boost is more longevity for motor, be realistic. Cost approx. $1,000 AUD if your clever.

    Cheers ed ge

    You have really planted a seed here !

    I'm going through the exercise of trying to work out what engine is best for my 404. I have an SLI engine on offer - which is a low compression XN engine which I was intending to turbo charge.

    But a supercharger in place of the redundant power steering pump has a lot of appeal! The plumbing would certainly be easier than a turbo.

    I am intending to fit electronic injection, instead of K jet, which can be arranged to cope with extra fuel demands.

    The Toyota 4AGE superchargers should be well priced too.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Robmac, have been reading your thread, way to build a unique vehicle.

    It really is very simple to do, bar accurate carburation that I never resolved properly. I still have the blower and will have another go but am not sure what on as yet. To manage blown, injected would be perfect one presumes. Boost alterable by changing crank pulley. Could have 2 / 3 programmes to match 2 / 3 boost levels, mild to wild. I still think people overlook the advantages of moderate power gain backed up with great torque increase.

    Toyota made two blowers from memory to suit 1600 & 2000, I have the 1600 variety and would always be happy to drive it direct or under for my use, presumedly yours to if it for street use. These were readily available in Adelaide for $300.

    When first dynoed my, 1470 cc 403 motor, standard but for mild cam put out 131 hp at 11 pounds boost, with standard exhaust. Backed down with 8 pounds and extractors fitted 107 hp, streetable, but all up too much for the three bearing crank. Will try for 85 hp next time. Should be ok for a 403.

    Cheers ed ge

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    Fellow Frogger! MR604's Avatar
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    Have you got any more info on these blowers, or where I could get some from (such as types, size etc). I've been tossing around the idea of putting one on the 604, as a little bit more go would be nice .

    Would an intercooler be necessary (I know it would be advisable).

    How do the clutches work on these charges, is it mad max style where you can turn it on and off as you please

    I haven't had much to do with these superchargers, except what I've read in rice boy mags and would like some real info on them. I understand that there will be a fair bit of messing around to get one fitted, but nothings impossible.

    A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other invention in human history, with the possible exception of handguns and tequila. - Mitch Radcliffe

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Super Chargers On Xm Engines

    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller
    Robmac, have been reading your thread, way to build a unique vehicle.

    It really is very simple to do, bar accurate carburation that I never resolved properly. I still have the blower and will have another go but am not sure what on as yet. To manage blown, injected would be perfect one presumes. Boost alterable by changing crank pulley. Could have 2 / 3 programmes to match 2 / 3 boost levels, mild to wild. I still think people overlook the advantages of moderate power gain backed up with great torque increase.

    Toyota made two blowers from memory to suit 1600 & 2000, I have the 1600 variety and would always be happy to drive it direct or under for my use, presumedly yours to if it for street use. These were readily available in Adelaide for $300.

    When first dynoed my, 1470 cc 403 motor, standard but for mild cam put out 131 hp at 11 pounds boost, with standard exhaust. Backed down with 8 pounds and extractors fitted 107 hp, streetable, but all up too much for the three bearing crank. Will try for 85 hp next time. Should be ok for a 403.

    Cheers ed ge


    Hi Ed,

    I have been looking at Bill Sherwoods' toyota site. It appears that Toyota 4age superchargers use a electromagnetic clutch, similar to aircon compressors.

    This is an interesting concept - I am a bit puzzled how the the engine breathes which the supercharger not running ?

    The pictures suggest that blower is a rootes type which is even more confusing (lobes in the way won't pass air!).

    I guess that they have a bypass mechanism to allow air from air flow metering system to the throttle bodies.

    The 4age is a with the blower was a 1600 engine -a copy of the Cosworth BDA engine - but toyota improved it with EFI and mangement.

    The 1AGE which also used a blower was a small 6 ?, about 3 litres I think.

    These are both very highly tuned and developed engines!

    I think the 4AGE blower would be entirely satisfactory on relatively basic engine like the XM with obly 8 valves !

    Is your blower conversion running full time or on a clutch ?

    I also believe that electronic ignition, fuel injection and engine mangement is the only way to -software tuning is so easy.

    I really don't want too high boost for the engine -I think about 150 hp in 404 would be the max safe limilt for road use . That's still almost twice the standard engine o/put.

    But maybe I'm still too greedy !

    regards


    Rob

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianne
    hi just joined. i,ve got a 1988 505 gr and it handles and rides brilliantly but it lacks the kind of urge i am looking for. can i drop an m16 lump in it and if so what mods will i need?
    What engine does a Kenyan 505 GR have fitted as a standard, Adrienne? What capacity is it? Is it a carby engine or an injected model? Pushrod or OHC? Engine specifications on Peugeots vary from country to country. Options may be to look for a Peugeot /Volvo/Renault V6 motor to replace your existing one, or a move to an injected motor rather than a carburettor one. It depends a lot on how much extra "oomph" you want too.

    Cheers

    Rod
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    Peugeot 407 SV HDi estate 2008, Peugeot 407 SV Hdi Sedan 2006, Peugeot 406 ST (deadish), Peugeot 307 XSE, - Previously 403s, 404, 504, 505 sLI Wagons, 306 XSi, Renault 12, Citroen DSpecial

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2 pugs
    Have you got any more info on these blowers, or where I could get some from (such as types, size etc). I've been tossing around the idea of putting one on the 604, as a little bit more go would be nice .

    Would an intercooler be necessary (I know it would be advisable).

    How do the clutches work on these charges, is it mad max style where you can turn it on and off as you please

    I haven't had much to do with these superchargers, except what I've read in rice boy mags and would like some real info on them. I understand that there will be a fair bit of messing around to get one fitted, but nothings impossible.


    hmmmmmm now you have me thinking

    blower on the 2849cc engine in the 604
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Supercharger On Prv V6

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    hmmmmmm now you have me thinking

    blower on the 2849cc engine in the 604

    The plumbing may resemble a heart-lung machine 'tho.....

  19. #19
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac
    The plumbing may resemble a heart-lung machine 'tho.....

    may do but it sounds nice

    maybe one of those gear type blowers from a falcon might be the go and mount it where the old air pump used to go on the 604

    then again i am thinking of putting the alternator there one day so the blower may have to go down below
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    I had this blower set up as suck through, carbie outside the blower and it would not run without blower engaged, therefore it was a permanent set up and the electromagnetic clutch was locked on. To set it up otherwise requires a blow through set up and few carbies will run efficiently in this configuration, sort it out and you can play Mad Max.

    No intercooler was used.

    And those riceboy magazines were a mine of information at the time. Their ideas about cars may vary from ours, but their commitment to performance cannot be denied. Zoom magazine, edited by Julian Edgar, has some very good, basic and then more specific info re supercharging in its back catalogue.

    Cheers ed ge

    Mods to safely cope with expected extra power include:

    4 wheel power assisted disc brakes
    sway bar front and rear
    chassis front cross member added
    205/65-15 RE88 Bridgestone tyres
    P504 triple core radiator/ Davies Craig V8 thermofan
    404 driveshaft and half axles
    404 differential
    403 o/d gearbox(rebuilt)

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! MR604's Avatar
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    I was thinking of mounting the blower where the air-con compressor usually goes. The other option would be to move the alternator there and mount the blower down there.


    The fan would be replaced by twin thermo fans.

    I guess that the blower would need an oil feed line from somewhere as well.

    Would it possible to keep the existing weber on it, or will it need a special type of carbie.

    I wouldnt bother using clutch on one either as it sounds like it would create too many headaches

    What other probs would there be?


    A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other invention in human history, with the possible exception of handguns and tequila. - Mitch Radcliffe

  22. #22
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i'll be keeping the A/C compressor so i can have some cool air induction inside the car

    the wiring harness will reach up and around to the other side but you will need to separate the oil sender wire from it as it is above where the alternator is presently

    i don't think oil feed would be too much of a problem as the guys running the turbos seem to have done it without dramas

    as for the carb i'd say it may need an upgrade to cope with the extra volume of air
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Mods To 403

    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller

    Mods to safely cope with expected extra power include:

    4 wheel power assisted disc brakes
    sway bar front and rear
    chassis front cross member added
    205/65-15 RE88 Bridgestone tyres
    P504 triple core radiator/ Davies Craig V8 thermofan
    404 driveshaft and half axles
    404 differential
    403 o/d gearbox(rebuilt)

    Why use a 403 as your basic car ?- the 404 has all the safety features mentioned except rear disks and sway bar. It is a lighter, more modern vehicle. Granted not as rugged as a 403, but more comfortable inside.

    Most of the running gear will by 404 anyway.

    Having said this: many forum members will probably question my choice of 404 instead of a 504/505 as MY project car !

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Blowers

    [QUOTE=edgedweller]I had this blower set up as suck through, carbie outside the blower and it would not run without blower engaged, therefore it was a permanent set up and the electromagnetic clutch was locked on. To set it up otherwise requires a blow through set up and few carbies will run efficiently in this configuration, sort it out and you can play Mad Max.

    No intercooler was used.


    Cheers ed ge



    Bill Sherwood suggests that constantly running toyota blowers is a bad idea. He seems to thingk they are not rated for full time running.

    I guess a single port injection system could be used on the "suck" side of the blower but then the MAP sensor is seeing (atmospheric + boost) which would give rise to some interesting software.

    I think it still be better to blow into the existing intake system and retain the 4 x port injection.

    Does anyone know how Toyota achieve intake air when the blower is de-clutched ?

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Default "PLAN..... there ain't no PLAN"

    Well, it started in an unexpected way, as many things do......

    but you do end up working on what you know and having 5 03's it seemed the place to start.....

    Me and me dad used to work on em together like.....

    and my 404 wagon experience wasn't the best....

    and someone once mistook it for a Rolls Royce....

    And it's really because my mate, who had terrific 404's and Citroens, said I was a bit thick with cars and should stick to EH's, so I've stuck with the french equivilent.... Oh and I've tooled around with a few 504's but am yet to try to make a definitive statement....

    but I'm going to look into that.....

    cheers ed ge

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