My Mi16 dilemma - advice wanted
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Poo-Go's Avatar
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    Default My Mi16 dilemma - advice wanted

    Hello all,

    Well, I have just spoken to Paul Vassallo on the phone. I've been having a few problems with the Mi16, and he seems to have tracked it down to a problem with the head. Specifically, he says that it will need new buckets all around. The price he can get them for is about $88 dollars each. For 16 of them, that seems like it could be the death of my dreams of being debt free any time soon.

    Also, of course, the engine has 280,000ks on it, it's pretty tired. Spending that much money when something else may go wrong soon down the track doesn't seem really worth it.

    So, I'm throwing the floor open to options. Some of these might be:

    Sourcing the buckets cheaper from the UK;
    Getting my hands on a reconditioned head;
    Rebuilding the whole motor while I'm at it;
    Getting a rebuilt motor put in;
    Or?
    Or?

    Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I love this car, having to spend a hell of a lot (more) money on it is depressing me.

    Cheers,

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    James.
    Care factor = -273.15șC

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger!
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    James,

    It's clear that you really enjoy the car, which I can understand, and that is worth quite a bit in itself. Would suggest that if you enjoy the car to the extent that you imagine yourself driving it for another half dozen years or so then source an inexpensive set of buckets ex UK or wherever and get the engine rebuilt as well.

    Chris.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I rebuild the buckets as part of a rebuild. So does Owen. They gum up with varnish. Bring it around and I'll have a look if you like. I'd rebuild it with new pistons/liners and recondition the head.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Of course it may not need new pistons/liners. Have you done a compression test on it yet? If not, I can do one for you.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    It's a tough call James, and it's hard when you have an emotional attachment to a car.

    I'm not sure I would have gone through with the rebuild on my XU9 if I had known how much it was eventually going to cost.

    What happens to the buckets to warrant replacing them?

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jester_fu
    How much do you charge for a basic recon, Peter.
    Around $2-2.5K, $3.5-4K with a piston/liner kit. That doesn't include removal/fitting.

    Until you've got all the bits in front of you it's impossible to really suggest a firm price.
    Last edited by PeterT; 30th November 2004 at 05:10 PM.

    '92 205 Mi16
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  7. #7
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    Cheers all for your ideas/thoughts, guys.

    At the moment, I'm leaning towards a whole new set of buckets. Seems to be the most sensible thing to do. However, Peugeot wants $88 each. For 16 of them, that's works out pretty darned expensive.

    So, can anyone point me in the right direction to find a decent second hand set in good nick here, or cheaper new ones from the UK? Or, if someone has a whole reconditioned head?

    Cheers,

    James.
    Care factor = -273.15șC

  8. #8
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    You can't really use second hand ones - at least, you're not meant to.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  9. #9
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    let me know how you go as i am looking at pulling 1 or 2 out of mine soon asit sounds a bit like a sewing machine but i know it's only 1 or 2 that are noisey
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  10. #10
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    You can't really use second hand ones - at least, you're not meant to.
    Are you sure you mean these buckets or the head bolts?
    We used some secondhand ones in the series one when it was rebuilt after we cleaned them up and rebuilt them.
    What you have to be wary of is what they are quoting on; the outer parts are expensive but the inner bits, the small buckets, lose all their sealing ability and rattle like all hell as well as allowing the oil pressure to drop to critical levels.
    We did check on the prospects of bringing in from the UK but even that was scarey.
    I'd suggest seeing if anyone has some from a snapped cambelt job that may be OK as I couldn't imagine any wrecker wanting to sell them cheaply nor to guarantee the condition of them either. If you know how to test them it mighten't be too bad.
    It's all a bit dicey for my money.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  11. #11
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    while we are on the subject of lifters has anyone ever pulled the lifters out of the J4RS heads ?

    i have heard 2 stories

    1 was to pull the head off as there is no other way to get them out and the other was that you can leave the head on

    now i would much prefer to leave the head on naturally

    also when i do get the rocker cover off how am i going to tell which ones are the noisey ones or if it is possible to refurbish them i should just do the whole lot of them

    also i have heard that there are oil lines that feed the top of the head so can these be cleaned out just in case they have gunk in them

    they shouldn't as i change the oil every 6 months or 8k km's and i normally run amsoil cleaner through it every 2nd to 3rd oil change
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  12. #12
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    If they're the same as the ones on the 16V we managed to get them out with the engine & head in place (can't remember how now though) but testing isn't all that difficult.
    I suppose the best description would be to remove and then pull the inner piston out. Clean up, ad a couple of drops of clean oil and refit and squeeze together between the thumb and forefinger. Think of squeazing grapes; good ones are like unripe grapes, crook ones like over ripe ones and the ones with air in them like olives.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    You can lift them out with a big magnet. There's an oil filter/screen in the head, but it can't be removed or checked without removing the head. I can't imagine GTi6 lifters would be stuffed already. I'd just pull them out and recondition as Alan suggested. I've found the "Kenco" degreaser very good at cleaning up the oil varnish. It seems to have twice as much active ingrediant than the others.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  14. #14
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I'd imagine low mileage burned out cars would be a source of good used buckets...

    The heads tend to buckle with the heat, but the buckets would be untouched in most cases.

    Maybe not ten gallon fires... but the normal one gallon fire they'd be okay, surely?

  15. #15
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    haven't seen any burnt out GTi-6's around

    the lifters have never been the same since a belt let go at around 1200rpm

    i had a dealer do the job as my old man insisted at the time to get them to do it as i didn't have the time

    the dealer is one i would never ever go to again but anyway

    ok so what i will do is take the cover off and check it all out and see what the story is

    the other thing is what if the idiots put the wrong buckets back in different spots when putting it back together

    when the head was put together by the head bloke he put everything back together so it was just a drop back on the engine job but the gorilla decided he would pull it all apart again before re fitting

    he said something about having to set all the shims which i thought the head bloke would have done that

    anyway that's all in the past so i need to now sort out what's what in there and get it sorted

    the dealer also said that when a belt goes it always destroys the lifters
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  16. #16
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    Hello again all,

    The second hand set I was offered was by an occassional user of this site who has an excellent reputation, and he was only going to offer me a set he knew was in very good shape. He wanted $50 each, though we didn't discuss a price for a whole set.

    I wasn't really prepared to take a risk on any other second hand ones, whose history I was unaware of.

    But, rejoice, I found www.needforspeed.co.uk can supply a whole set from Piper Cams, including postage to the colonies, for about $520. Still $520 I could do without paying, but next to $1416 for a full set from Peugeot, you can understand why I'm smiling this morning.

    Thanks again for your help, guys.
    Care factor = -273.15șC

  17. #17
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    If it was Owen, you should have grabbed them...

    He's got two fire-damaged heads, from memory.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Poo-Go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    If it was Owen, you should have grabbed them...

    He's got two fire-damaged heads, from memory.
    It was Owen, and while I have confidence he'd only give me parts he'd use himself, I was able to get new ones far cheaper.

    We did discuss a head, but it was a considerable amount more, though reasonable considering the work that would have been done on it, and the testing to make sure it was OK.
    Care factor = -273.15șC

  19. #19
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LookingforMi16
    Hello again all,

    The second hand set I was offered was by an occassional user of this site who has an excellent reputation, and he was only going to offer me a set he knew was in very good shape. He wanted $50 each, though we didn't discuss a price for a whole set.

    I wasn't really prepared to take a risk on any other second hand ones, whose history I was unaware of.

    But, rejoice, I found www.needforspeed.co.uk can supply a whole set from Piper Cams, including postage to the colonies, for about $520. Still $520 I could do without paying, but next to $1416 for a full set from Peugeot, you can understand why I'm smiling this morning.

    Thanks again for your help, guys.

    Mate,

    Before you dive in, just be sure what you are getting.
    That price to me sounds like just the large outer buckets and may not include the smaller inner ones.
    Clarify that point before you hand over any cash as I get my stuff at a pretty fair price from overseas and from memory this was about what we were quoted for the buckets but on asking more detail discovered it was only the outer ones. Costs nothing to ask but can take a while & cost a packet if they've got it wrong. Hope you've been lucky & found a cheap source just the same.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  20. #20
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i was quoted $49 ea and i took that to be just the outers and of course they said i had to replace all 16 of them because they said you couldn't tell whci are any good and which are ok

    typical pug dealer parts dealer

    anything to get his quota up for the free holiday
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  21. #21
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Anyone for a Dolomite Sprint head conversion?

    Not a bucket to be seen... and only one camshaft!

  22. #22
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Anyone for a Dolomite Sprint head conversion?

    Not a bucket to be seen... and only one camshaft!

    wash your mouth out

    i've had my dolomite days
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  23. #23
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Anyone for a Dolomite Sprint head conversion?

    Not a bucket to be seen... and only one camshaft!

    mind you there are plenty of buckets needed to work on them though
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  24. #24
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Which buckets are these?

    Remember... you praised this head in another thread!

  25. #25
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Which buckets are these?

    Remember... you praised this head in another thread!

    i never praised it i said it was clever running 16v from a single cam with ok ports to propell a lightweight car

    but the water pump is a pile of ..................

    you need buckets to work on them.........toungue in cheek
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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