404s with saggy bums
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  1. #1
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    Default 404s with saggy bums

    My 404 is sagging in the bum, quite a lot... comes to most of us with age. It's probably time for a new set of coil springs. I understand Kings Springs can make a set, and beef them up a bit.

    Has anyone any experience with improving rear springs for the 404? Do 504 coils go in? (I suspect not. ) Has anyone had Kings Springs make them a set, if so were they good?

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  2. #2
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I doubt that 'beefing them up a bit' will actually achieve any good...

    No decent original springs hanging around?

  3. #3
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    have a talk to Graham Wallis about suspension but if it were me i would be putting something a little heavier in there
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    403 rear springs are a little heavier or taller and will raise the back of a 404. Of course this all depends on how sagged the 403 springs are, which you find. With a little sag, they may be roughly equivalent to new 404 springs.

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by davemcbean
    403 rear springs are a little heavier or taller and will raise the back of a 404. Of course this all depends on how sagged the 403 springs are, which you find. With a little sag, they may be roughly equivalent to new 404 springs.

    Dave
    Thanks, Dave, that's worth looking at... I have a dead 403 in the paddock which is too rusty to warrant restoration, so I might give this a try.

    I recently helped a mate buy a 505GR which had Kings Springs fitted with 20% stiffening - it certainly reduced body roll on the 505 and made it a tighter, better handling car, though reducing the quality of the ride a little...hence my flirtation with the idea of getting Kings to make springs beefed up a little

    Chris

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    There are, of course, two completely different types of 403 spring mounts... I'd imagine the springs would be different as well?

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    Fellow Frogger! jarrods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    There are, of course, two completely different types of 403 spring mounts... I'd imagine the springs would be different as well?
    I don't know anything about 403's. But the springs in my 404 were out of a 403B.

    Hope this helps

    Jarrod

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! Phil Whitton's Avatar
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    Icon7 spring in the bum?

    G'day, somewhere under the bench are the springs from the 504 diesel. Theyare certainly stiff. If interested I can measure them against the 404 ones and have them at the "Nest" when you next go past.
    Phil

  9. #9
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    They're way too stiff, Phil...

    Not only because they come from a heavier car, but they also have a leverage of nearly 2:1 on them.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    They're way too stiff, Phil...

    Not only because they come from a heavier car, but they also have a leverage of nearly 2:1 on them.

    at least it would get rid of some of that damn bodyroll
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    There are, of course, two completely different types of 403 spring mounts... I'd imagine the springs would be different as well?

    Any 403 springs from telescopic shocker models will be around 10mm lower than the 404 springs. They are good to put in 404s fitted with gas rear shockers. It brings the height back to standard.
    If anything I reckon 404 rear springs are too hard (for example they are terrible on speed humps) and I've never had any that have sagged so I guess I'm not much help!
    The early 403 springs are much higher, not suitable unless you are doing a long trip with a fully loaded car.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    Any 403 springs from telescopic shocker models will be around 10mm lower than the 404 springs. They are good to put in 404s fitted with gas rear shockers. It brings the height back to standard.
    If anything I reckon 404 rear springs are too hard (for example they are terrible on speed humps) and I've never had any that have sagged so I guess I'm not much help!
    The early 403 springs are much higher, not suitable unless you are doing a long trip with a fully loaded car.
    Graham
    Thanks, guys - this sounds like a good solution, and at nil cost! The rusted out 403 I have is a 403B I think, so I will get under it and started disembowelling it over the weekend .

  13. #13
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    It's a 403B if it has the springs on top of the axle...

    Not if the springs are on box-section radius arms.

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! Phil Whitton's Avatar
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    If that fails I have 2 sets from 404 sedans available. One still in the car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by acreid
    Thanks, guys - this sounds like a good solution, and at nil cost! The rusted out 403 I have is a 403B I think, so I will get under it and started disembowelling it over the weekend .
    If it is a 403B it will have shorter springs than for the 404, I thought you wanted to raise the car?
    Graham

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    My mistake, I want early 403 springs, since I want to raise the car. Colin Handley thinks he has a couple of sets of 403 springs, so I'll look for the longest pair. I do have other 404 springs, but if mine have sagged I assume the others would be much the same...but that may be a wrong assumption. Thanks for all your help...if I discover anything interesting in this process I will share it on this thread!

  17. #17
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Chris, I think most of them will be okay...

    I don't think I've seen that many 404s with their tails on the ground.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by acreid
    My mistake, I want early 403 springs, since I want to raise the car. Colin Handley thinks he has a couple of sets of 403 springs, so I'll look for the longest pair. I do have other 404 springs, but if mine have sagged I assume the others would be much the same...but that may be a wrong assumption. Thanks for all your help...if I discover anything interesting in this process I will share it on this thread!
    I probably have a set left over from the Redex Spares.
    Graham

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    Thanks for the offer Graham, but I discovered by torchlight last night that Colin has one set and I have a second set of earlier 403 springs. So will put a set in this weekend and see how I go.

    cheers
    Chris

  20. #20
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Don't lose any of those early 403 axle tubes, will you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Don't lose any of those early 403 axle tubes, will you?
    Do you want some Ray?
    Graham

  22. #22
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I will if I ever get around to building that world beating Clubman I've designed...

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    If anything I reckon 404 rear springs are too hard (for example they are terrible on speed humps) and I've never had any that have sagged so I guess I'm not much help!
    I have a set of spare 505 wagon rear springs if you really want to beef it up.

    I notice that there were actually a couple of different rear spings fitted to RHD 404's too. THe earliest ones, according to my genuine 404 Workshop Manual supplement number 1, had a free height of 391.5 to 402.5mm and a height under load of 251-256mm . The later ones had a free height of 402.5 to 413.5 and a height under load of 256 to 261mm.

    Interestingly the height of the heavy duty 505 rears, according to Haynes is also 413mm!

    Cheers

    Rod
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  24. #24
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    404 wagon springs would soon have it on the bump stops...

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