2 ways of tightening 504 head?
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default 2 ways of tightening 504 head?

    Hi,

    Did a valve job on a 504, that had XM7 stamped on the head.
    An online 504 service manual says that either the head is tightened in the normal clockwise fashion, 43 and 60 ft-lbs, or if its an XM7 or XN1 (compressed liners) motor, use the "dual socket" special Peugeot tool thingie...which does not exist here..

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    I tightened the head the normal way, (in 10 lb increments though) and things seem ok...

    Anything I should double check, or a way around using this tool??

    regards,

    nikos

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Icon14 Tightening 504 head?

    Nikos
    The correct way to tighten your XM7 head and all others with the compressed liner engine. It is not necessary to have the Peugeot 8.0129 socket.
    Stage one. Tighten all bolts to 5m.kg[36 ft lbs].
    Stage two. Slacken bolt 1 then tighten to 2m.kg[15ft lbs]. Then tighten 90 degrees[a quarter turn]. Carry out this operation one at a time up to bolt 10.
    All the above came from Peugeot's workshop manual.
    They supply a further instruction for re-tightening after 1000km. This may not be necessary with newer type, monotorque, gaskets.
    The instruction is stage two repeated. ALWAYS with a cold engine.
    There are various reasons for this convoluted method one is to overcome the variations in torque wrench readings due to bolt friction etc. Angle tightening removes this error.
    A number of XM7 engined 504's have found their way to Australia usually via South Africa. They would be the L model,1800cc with live rear axle.

  3. #3
    Tadpole
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    Default Thanx..a bit more?

    Thanx Wildebeest,

    (nice moniker;-)
    I saw the other similar post on 404 heads..
    The bolts on my head are torx style...
    I used the same ones, but with an "accurate" Snap-on wrench, 43ft-lbs, then 60ft-lbs..

    Regardless, there was ref. to "torque-to-yield head bolts"...
    Are these XM7 pug torx bolts like that?

    I also dont know if the head gasket was specifically for the XM7 head...

    Car's been running a week, w/o prob..

    So assuming unknow gead gasket, and the same "old" bolts, should I re-torque with the method you proposed, or just blow it off...(would hate to snap a bolt...)

    regards,

    nick

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default 2ways of tightening head.

    Nikos.
    I'll answer your second query first. If you had installed the wrong ie two litre compressed liner gasket to your 1800 XM7 engine you would have experienced immediate coolant leaks. Rest assured that you have fitted the correct gasket.
    Unusual to find Torx head bolts on these engines, possibly a later '80's model not sold in Aus?
    Anyway I would bite the bullet and retorque to the second stage. From the centre and one at a time slacken off the bolt then tighten to 15ft lbs then a 90 degree pull. [quarter turn].
    [Wildebeest, from one of UK comedian Lenny Henry's characters Theophulus P.Wildebeest].


    Quote Originally Posted by nikos
    Thanx Wildebeest,

    (nice moniker;-)
    I saw the other similar post on 404 heads..
    The bolts on my head are torx style...
    I used the same ones, but with an "accurate" Snap-on wrench, 43ft-lbs, then 60ft-lbs..

    Regardless, there was ref. to "torque-to-yield head bolts"...
    Are these XM7 pug torx bolts like that?

    I also dont know if the head gasket was specifically for the XM7 head...

    Car's been running a week, w/o prob..

    So assuming unknow gead gasket, and the same "old" bolts, should I re-torque with the method you proposed, or just blow it off...(would hate to snap a bolt...)

    regards,

    nick

  5. #5
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Default

    One think I'm wondering, Wildebeest, is this...

    How come you posted asking for guidance on torquing a head a few days ago, and here you are giving first class information on the subject yourself?

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default 2 ways of tightening 504 head

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    One think I'm wondering, Wildebeest, is this...

    How come you posted asking for guidance on torquing a head a few days ago, and here you are giving first class information on the subject yourself?
    Ray, we'll have to stop meeting like this.
    My first post on this subject,2nd Nov. was to put out the query."Had anyone heard of this head torquing method ie with a final pull of 300 degrees ?" Confused, as I was by the instructions supplied with the gasket kit.
    The job in question was carried out over 12 years ago, by now a little late for guidance but fortunately with no problems.
    In the years prior and since I've used the factory specs also with no problems.
    Ever since, given the opportunity, I would quiz Peugeot mechanics on this procedure with varying answers and more than the odd raised eyebrow.
    I have graciously accepted your 13th Nov, torque-to-yield explanation.
    By the way I am humbled by your comment on my giving out first class information.

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    No matter how we meet, it's always nice to meet someone with an enquiring mind and a good understanding of technical issues...

    Maybe it would be better if we met on the corner of Duncraig Road and Canning Beach Road so we could properly discuss the difficulties faced by Clem Dwyer and Ron Posselt during the running of the Patriotic Grand Prix?

    During the course of your enquiries, then, did you establish exactly why the bolts had to be changed with each use? And whether tightening them the regular way would be any problem?

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    if the yare anything like the later model head bolts then they need to be replaced everytime a head comes off the car

    maybe this car sometime along the line has had these bolts fitted to it as they may be the same size and the original ones were cactus hence the reason they had to be repalced
    3 x '78 604 SL

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  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default Tightening 504 heads and other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    No matter how we meet, it's always nice to meet someone with an enquiring mind and a good understanding of technical issues...

    Maybe it would be better if we met on the corner of Duncraig Road and Canning Beach Road so we could properly discuss the difficulties faced by Clem Dwyer and Ron Posselt during the running of the Patriotic Grand Prix?

    During the course of your enquiries, then, did you establish exactly why the bolts had to be changed with each use? And whether tightening them the regular way would be any problem?
    Ray,
    Re the Clem Dwyer, Ron Posselt quandary. I'm pushed for time on this one. I'll need to peruse my copy of The Official 50 Race History of the AGP and a few back copies of "Raisin Car News". The strangest thing though, in the credits page of the above AGP history is a profile of a Ray Bell, could it be?
    Did you know that Clem Dwyer passed away not long ago? He was well up into his 80's and still punting his WRX around Wanneroo on club days.

    Your last question, no I didn't come across anything in the factory manuals about replacing 504 head bolts apart from the diesels. Also nothing on whether tightening them the regular way would be detrimental. Of course the factory wouldn't suggest an alternative.
    As you would know torque-to-yield bolts, to put it simply are stretched and cannot be re-used.
    I have a copy of AJUSA's head bolt catalogue it contains info on t-y bolts and part numbers. One of your local engine rebuilders might have a spare.

  10. #10
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    This might sounds half arsed but all the 504 heads i have done i have just gone to 35lb first time round 65lb second time around and never had a gasket go yet

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default Tightening heads

    Pug403
    Your basic method would have roughly applied in your 403 days but surely you would have sought out further info for the later models?
    In my early days as an apprentice mechanic one of the senior mechanics had a saying for mechanics who chose to do the job contrary to makers instruction. "Beware the sleeping tiger".

  12. #12
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Wildebeest
    Ray,
    Re the Clem Dwyer, Ron Posselt quandary. I'm pushed for time on this one. I'll need to peruse my copy of The Official 50 Race History of the AGP and a few back copies of "Raisin Car News". The strangest thing though, in the credits page of the above AGP history is a profile of a Ray Bell, could it be?
    Did you know that Clem Dwyer passed away not long ago? He was well up into his 80's and still punting his WRX around Wanneroo on club days.....
    Sad but true... last I spoke to him he was looking for a supercharger for his MG A, said he was working his way back (from a Westfield with RX7 engine...) to the first competition car he had... an MG P2 or something.

    Of it, Alan Tomlinson told me, (about Albany Hillclimb, 1933...) "You could hear it all the way up the hill, it sounded great and the run was perfect... and nobody could beat that time!"

    Even five years ago he used to go to the speedway every night. "I just jump on my bike and ride down there, it's not far," he said, "and I sling a foldup chair over my shoulder because I've got a mate with a ute. We sit our chairs in the back of the ute and watch the races in comfort." He was 84 then...

    Your search through the AGP book would be fruitless... however, if you have a copy of Terry Walker's Around the Houses (with layouts and captions by Raymond G Bell...) you'll find details on the page about Applecross.

    Racing Car News, of course, contains photographs of me in my youth... nearly matching the one on the other side of the AGP book page with the credits.

    I figured re-using the TTY bolts would be imprudent... I'm saving all old bolts that can be re-used.

  13. #13
    Member asa504's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    if the yare anything like the later model head bolts then they need to be replaced everytime a head comes off the car

    maybe this car sometime along the line has had these bolts fitted to it as they may be the same size and the original ones were cactus hence the reason they had to be repalced

    just reading the latest posts... if u have to replace these bolts its becauce the torque settings are in the plastis range of the bolt.
    this means the bolt, as ray put it, has been stretched and cant be used again. if u do the tensile yield will be alot lower then the original and you'll propably snap a bolt.

    the engine that uses reusable bolts only tightens them into the elastic regioin. this means they relax back to their original length and propities they had before being torqued.

    if your not sure u should just replace them. although the old bolts may not break they will be weaker then what they are designed for.

    Aaron

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    Pug403
    Your basic method would have roughly applied in your 403 days but surely you would have sought out further info for the later models?
    In my early days as an apprentice mechanic one of the senior mechanics had a saying for mechanics who chose to do the job contrary to makers instruction. "Beware the sleeping tiger".
    I have never put a head on a 403 and besides as i said i have never had one leak

    i have just recently dont the head on my 85 mod 7 series BMW and decided i'd better ask the mechanic what method to use and bear in mind this is a specialist BMW Mechanic that just use the same method i have always used just tighten 20 then 40 then 60 he said there is no need for backing off and angle tightening

  15. #15
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Unless you have the bolts that are made to be used that way...

    These are different bolts to the old style.

  16. #16
    Member asa504's Avatar
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    Angle torque is more accurate because you are removing the friction factor.
    The idea is to get each bolt to a specific torque so it puts a specific force through the head clamping the head gasket between the head and the deck.
    Doing all the head bolt up first loads the head and locates everything as how it would be in the final tightened position. Backing the bolts off wonít move or disturb any thing. Then the torque is usually low, pretty much 'snug' if you like, then + something like 90 degrees. By tightening to such a low torque before the angle torque you can ensure all the bolts are going to be near identical torques as there is very little friction involve between the threads, under the head of the bolt and on the washer.

    If we just over exaggerate for a second, let say one bolt has been oiled up, the thread, the washer etc and another is completely dry, maybe even has a little corrosion. Now I know this is not how you would assembly a head but let see you make those bolts put equal forces on the head from the normal torque process.
    Itís impossible. The friction on the dry bolt will take all the torque and while both may read 80Nm etc, they will be completely different to one other.

    Angle torque is pre-loading the head and then 'shortening', (tightening) the bolt a specific length. This length is given as an angle. On a bolt, say a M10 1.25, 180 degrees will be 0.625 mm. This reduction in length loads the bolt in its elastic region. If this bolt is undone it will return to its original size and can be used again. (Remember this is very small elongation).
    If the bolt exceeds its elastic region and goes into it plastic region, your left with 10 paper weights!
    Last edited by asa504; 21st November 2004 at 08:06 PM.

  17. #17
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by asa504
    .....If we just over excaudate for a second.....
    I wondered what you meant by this, so I looked it up...

    adj.

    Without a tail; tailless.
    Problem is I'm still none the wiser!

  18. #18
    Member asa504's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    I wondered what you meant by this, so I looked it up...



    Problem is I'm still none the wiser!

    there you go ray. i got the spelling right now. see if this helps.

    I recommend you angle torque your head bolts.

  19. #19
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I don't have that kind of bolts in my engines...

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