504 TI Tuning
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Thread: 504 TI Tuning

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    Tadpole Mr White Keys's Avatar
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    Icon5 504 TI Tuning

    Hi, I'm a new member here and I was just wondering if I could seek some help in the tuning of my 1972 504 TI.
    It's got a recently rebuilt motor and I can't seem to find a good balance between being too rich and too lean. Is there any sort of basic starting point I can work from. Is there some way of setting the capsule or something?

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    Any help would be appreciated as the poor thing is yearning for a proper tune.

    Cheers
    Mr White Keys

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    In my experience, the fewer people touch the settings the better, and the less they're touched the better...

    There is a base setting for the cold running (which I'm sure pugrambo will explain to you very soon...) but other than that the only thing I've ever got results from with mine has been to fit new plugs and make sure they were set at 26 thou.

    I assume, of course, that it was running properly before...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr White Keys
    Hi, I'm a new member here and I was just wondering if I could seek some help in the tuning of my 1972 504 TI.
    It's got a recently rebuilt motor and I can't seem to find a good balance between being too rich and too lean. Is there any sort of basic starting point I can work from. Is there some way of setting the capsule or something?

    Any help would be appreciated as the poor thing is yearning for a proper tune.

    Cheers
    Mr White Keys
    The capsule only affects the cold start mixture.
    A rod controlled by the capsule pushes against the idle mixture lever when the engine is cold, there should be a gap when it is warm.
    To adjust the idle mixture warm up the engine completely then adjust the position of the lever (lock nut and allen headed screw) until the engine revs just rise as the lever is lifted. You need to set the ignition timing first.
    This will have an effect on the overalll running mixture as well.

    Graham

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr White Keys
    Hi, I'm a new member here and I was just wondering if I could seek some help in the tuning of my 1972 504 TI.
    It's got a recently rebuilt motor and I can't seem to find a good balance between being too rich and too lean. Is there any sort of basic starting point I can work from. Is there some way of setting the capsule or something?

    Any help would be appreciated as the poor thing is yearning for a proper tune.

    Cheers
    Mr White Keys

    a new motor ?

    was this rebuilding the old one ?

    if nothing was touched in the injection everything should be ok

    when you say it's too lean or rich is this normal warmed up running ?

    i need to just know a few things to point you in the right direction

    if the car isn't getting up to operating temp i'd be looking at something as simple as a thermostat

    i await your reply
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    Tadpole Mr White Keys's Avatar
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    Yes it's a rebuilt motor and the reason the settings aren't well is because its a rebuilt injection pump as well.

    It seems to be either too rich or too lean at normal operating temperature. It has no power and struggles immensely when some power is demanded below about 3000 revs but can pull from anything when given light smooth throttle throught the range. It is only at full throttle it struggles a bit.

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Has the person who rebuilt the injection pump been able to suggest any reasons for this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr White Keys
    Yes it's a rebuilt motor and the reason the settings aren't well is because its a rebuilt injection pump as well.

    It seems to be either too rich or too lean at normal operating temperature. It has no power and struggles immensely when some power is demanded below about 3000 revs but can pull from anything when given light smooth throttle throught the range. It is only at full throttle it struggles a bit.
    Does it run alternatively too rich or too lean or are you unsure of which?
    Doesn't sound like the idle mixture adjustment will have any affect, more like the diaphragm tensioner underneath the dome. Take it back to who ever rebuilt the pump.

    Graham

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    Tadpole Mr White Keys's Avatar
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    Default Explanation of rebuilt injection pump.

    Hi, I the bloke who rebuilt Mr White Keys' pump. I'm his Dad. I fitted a new set of diaphragms, and modified the mixture shaft for "O" ring seals, (relatively unsuccessfully I might add, as it's leaking again! But that's a secondary problem)

    To replace the diaphragms you have to completely dismantle the whole thing, losing all previous settings in the process. It's all very fine to try to record them and even photograph them, but none of these seemed to work for me.

    I have yet to find any information detailing the initial settings, pressures, vacuums, tensions, clearances, whatever, that would enable me to set the initial parameters.

    My plan at the moment is to measure the idle vacuum and use that figure, artificially produced (by sucking) to set the "idle" position of the mixture slide (fully down, operated by the diaphragms). I figure this will give me a known base to work from that I can then fine tune with the mixture shaft setting. Has anyone ever tried this?

    The main problem I foresee is that the tension of the spring that pulls the slide up as vacuum drops is an unknown. I've tried incrementing this and will continue to do so, but it's a pain to get to. If anyone has any quantifiable settings I'd love to know them!

    BTW, Graeme, I'm retaining my anonymity by using the young Bloke's username, but you know me, you sold me the Auto 504 a year or two ago!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr White Keys
    Hi, I the bloke who rebuilt Mr White Keys' pump. I'm his Dad. I fitted a new set of diaphragms, and modified the mixture shaft for "O" ring seals, (relatively unsuccessfully I might add, as it's leaking again! But that's a secondary problem)

    To replace the diaphragms you have to completely dismantle the whole thing, losing all previous settings in the process. It's all very fine to try to record them and even photograph them, but none of these seemed to work for me.

    I have yet to find any information detailing the initial settings, pressures, vacuums, tensions, clearances, whatever, that would enable me to set the initial parameters.

    My plan at the moment is to measure the idle vacuum and use that figure, artificially produced (by sucking) to set the "idle" position of the mixture slide (fully down, operated by the diaphragms). I figure this will give me a known base to work from that I can then fine tune with the mixture shaft setting. Has anyone ever tried this?

    The main problem I foresee is that the tension of the spring that pulls the slide up as vacuum drops is an unknown. I've tried incrementing this and will continue to do so, but it's a pain to get to. If anyone has any quantifiable settings I'd love to know them!

    BTW, Graeme, I'm retaining my anonymity by using the young Bloke's username, but you know me, you sold me the Auto 504 a year or two ago!

    Hi R-- Have you tried Morassi and Williams, they definitely have the know how.
    I have to contact you regarding your neighbor's Ampol entry.
    Graham

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    Tadpole Mr White Keys's Avatar
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    Default What? Spend Money? You must be MAD!

    Graeme, I'll let him know when he returns from Wollongong

    Morassi & Williams are definintely an option, but they expect money for their services, a commodity with which we retain only a passing familiarity.

    Besides which, Kugelfischer Injection fascinates me so much that I crave the buzz of finally working it out and triumphing over the Gnomes of Munich! If the path is strewn with frustrations, so be it. The challenge is more important than a solution!

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    Just a caution. I gave our R19 with an idle problem to Morassi & Williams. The diagnosis was to have the transmission computer fixed for a few hundred dollars. Being a bit of a smart arse with some technical ability i did not take their advice. As it turne out it was feedbach from the alternator that upset the idle (a french thing)

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    Default Alternator interference

    JoBo

    I had a DS23 Citroen once, the second love of my life. It ran like a dog, (a poodle of course) at one stage.

    It was only after working my way through the complete D-Jetronic injection system that I discovered that the alternator had been rather inexpertly re-conditioned and was causing problems.

    What happened was that the slip rings had been machined slightly off centre (turned into cams!). Once the brushes wore down to their maximum, then the one brush was "skipping" a small sector of the slip ring, introducing a pulse onto the voltage source.

    The rather rudimentary electronics package (All discrete components, but super in the '70's!) was responding to this pule in the following way:

    The injectors are supposed to fire "1&3, 2&4, 1&3, 2&4" etc. The pulse was close to being synchronous with the firing pulses and resulted in the firing sequence, "1&3, all four, 1&3, all four" Needless to say this resulted in a very rough and rich idle, and a motor trying hard to climb out through the bonnet.

    Disconnecting the field of the alternator tranformed the idle to sweet sweet music!

    Guess how many microseconds it took to remove the alternator and throw it across the garage!

    The only thing this post has in common with the thread is that I'm the same bloke who replied above under my son's logon! (I forgot I was already a member!)

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    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Default Alternator interference

    JoBo

    I had a DS23 Citroen once, the second love of my life. It ran like a dog, (a poodle of course) at one stage.

    It was only after working my way through the complete D-Jetronic injection system that I discovered that the alternator had been rather inexpertly re-conditioned and was causing problems.

    What happened was that the slip rings had been machined slightly off centre (turned into cams!). Once the brushes wore down to their maximum, then the one brush was "skipping" a small sector of the slip ring, introducing a pulse onto the voltage source.

    The rather rudimentary electronics package (All discrete components, but super in the '70's!) was responding to this pule in the following way:

    The injectors are supposed to fire "1&3, 2&4, 1&3, 2&4" etc. The pulse was close to being synchronous with the firing pulses and resulted in the firing sequence, "1&3, all four, 1&3, all four" Needless to say this resulted in a very rough and rich idle, and a motor trying hard to climb out through the bonnet.

    Disconnecting the field of the alternator tranformed the idle to sweet sweet music!

    Guess how many microseconds it took to remove the alternator and throw it across the garage!

    The only thing this post has in common with the thread is that I'm the same bloke who replied above under my son's logon! (I forgot I was already a member!)

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr White Keys
    Hi, I the bloke who rebuilt Mr White Keys' pump. I'm his Dad. I fitted a new set of diaphragms, and modified the mixture shaft for "O" ring seals, (relatively unsuccessfully I might add, as it's leaking again! But that's a secondary problem)

    To replace the diaphragms you have to completely dismantle the whole thing, losing all previous settings in the process. It's all very fine to try to record them and even photograph them, but none of these seemed to work for me.

    I have yet to find any information detailing the initial settings, pressures, vacuums, tensions, clearances, whatever, that would enable me to set the initial parameters.

    My plan at the moment is to measure the idle vacuum and use that figure, artificially produced (by sucking) to set the "idle" position of the mixture slide (fully down, operated by the diaphragms). I figure this will give me a known base to work from that I can then fine tune with the mixture shaft setting. Has anyone ever tried this?

    The main problem I foresee is that the tension of the spring that pulls the slide up as vacuum drops is an unknown. I've tried incrementing this and will continue to do so, but it's a pain to get to. If anyone has any quantifiable settings I'd love to know them!

    BTW, Graeme, I'm retaining my anonymity by using the young Bloke's username, but you know me, you sold me the Auto 504 a year or two ago!

    have you got a copy of the workshop manual pages for the TI system ?

    i can go through all the steps you need to to set this system up on here but if you drop me an email i will reply with the scans to help you through your exercise and then post back here if any further trouble arises
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    None of the manuals I've seen go into the details of setting up the mixture slide travel and diaphragm spring loadings (Presumably set at known vacuum levels). I'm guessing that these need to be somewhere within a bull's roar of optimum before playing with idle speed and mixture is going to matter a damn.

    If you can help with the nitty gritty setup, I'm prepared to grovel at your feet!

  16. #16
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    Default Fiddling Pays Off!

    Update time for anyone interested.

    I've fine tuned the diaphragm adjustments, mainly by trial and error. I've reset the idle mixture (which is also a global mixture setting in that it affects the whole range of engine speeds) by small increments. Each change has been sampled by a drive test. (Oh for a chassis dyno in the garage!)

    I've just driven to the airport and back and it's almost right!

    A smidgeon of hesitation on full throttle, but very smooth and powerful with light and gradual throttle, and a screamer over 2000 revs.

    Nearly there!

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    Icon7

    I have some info on setting up the Kugelfischer KF1 and KF2 injection pumps if anyone is interested. It is titled, "Kugelfischer Injection Pump as Fitted to Peugeot 404 Engine". It's a chapter out of a book called The Petrol Injection Book for Automobiles published June 1970. It also covers other types such as the Lucas MkII as fitted to Triumph PI cars and early Bosch and Volkswagon systems.

    It may be helpful, it mentions a lot of special tools required. I've scanned it and converted it to pdf documents. There's 22 pages for a total of about 1.4MB. The jpg's are better quality but they total about 17MB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr White Keys
    The main problem I foresee is that the tension of the spring that pulls the slide up as vacuum drops is an unknown. I've tried incrementing this and will continue to do so, but it's a pain to get to. If anyone has any quantifiable settings I'd love to know them!
    I have made a shaft to fit through a hole in the top of the dome & onto the top of the large screw so that the spring tention can be adjusted while running . The shaft has an o-ring on it through a short piece of tube brazed to the top of the dome to seal it. This mod made life so much easier to tune the diaphragm.

    Will

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    Brilliant!

    I have a spare dome so I'll create such a thing post haste. This would certainly facilitate the process. Maybe I should create a motorised version for dynamic tuning on the road?

    What do you know about adjusting the main bit, the spring holder as it were?

    This is the thing that is locked in position by the large locknut. From what I can glean, this adjustment varies the tension on the diphragm pair as well. I still don't know where it should be set as a start position, since it had to be removed to replace the diaphragms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pottsy
    What do you know about adjusting the main bit, the spring holder as it were?

    This is the thing that is locked in position by the large locknut. From what I can glean, this adjustment varies the tension on the diphragm pair as well. I still don't know where it should be set as a start position, since it had to be removed to replace the diaphragms.
    A good initial position is when the spring just starts to take up the tension. You can feel as you wind out the large screw it start to get harder. This is the leanest position where the smallest manifold vacuum will suck the diaphragm down cutting off the fuel. You just keep increasing the spring tention to make it run richer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pottsy
    What do you know about adjusting the main bit, the spring holder as it were?

    This is the thing that is locked in position by the large locknut. From what I can glean, this adjustment varies the tension on the diphragm pair as well. I still don't know where it should be set as a start position, since it had to be removed to replace the diaphragms.
    A good initial position is when the spring just starts to take up the tension. You can feel as you wind out the large screw it start to get harder. This is the leanest position where the smallest manifold vacuum will suck the diaphragm down cutting off the fuel. You just keep increasing the spring tention to make it run richer.
    Will

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    geez guys, some really good info here. that idea with the screw driver and an o-ring sounds good and i've had a problem tuning these cars before as you have to pull the injector lines off to get to the diaphragm spring.
    one idea further from the moterised version is to run an oxzgen sensor and a/f ratio gauge in the car also, get some road dyno'in going.

    what i did want to find out though, is where did you purchase the diaphragms? i have been told they are hard and expensive to get now. there bouts how much were they, i will have a Ti just sitting around waiting for some.
    cheers, aaron

  23. #23
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    The spare dome aforementioned has now been fitted out with a slotted bit of plastic, silastic attached to the inside top. The idea is simply to engage the slot over the spring loop and by turning the dome, the spring will be adjusted. Simply slackening off the clamp ring should allow dome turning to happen. Time will tell if this works. (And when it does, I'll pass it on!)

    I obtained a pair of diaphragms from Morassi & Williams in Altona (Melbourne). This was a couple of years ago now, and they may not have any more stock, or may be reluctant to part with them if they have. I can't help feeling that it would be possible to reproduce these if one had enough of a similar material with which to practice. It may well be that us "died in the wool" injection addicts have to explore this route through a complete ack of replacement parts in the future.

    Speaking of which, the mixture shaft seal is, as I understand it, almost impossible to get. I modified my mixture shaft to take a normal neoprene "O" ring, but this has not yet proven completely successful. Further developments as they come to hand.

    I like the concept of tuning while driving, but doing a repeatable ramp test for meaningful comparisons could be a little difficult! Of course if you also set up the whole deal with a trip computer as well, you could while away those long trips by optimising the performance of the car at a constant speed, dial in a bit more for the hills coming up, etc, etc! Mind you, I'm not sure Mr Plod would smile kindly on this as an excuse for why we ran off the road: "Honestly Officer, I was just tuning the car up!"
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