Strange 505Gti starter
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  1. #1
    Member 4WDrift's Avatar
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    Default Strange 505Gti starter

    Wonder if anyone might be able to shed some light?

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    When I go to start my new 505GTi, I turn the key and all I hear is the electric fuel pump in the back - it sort of hums. Nothing happens at all as far as the starter motor is concerned.
    So I try again and again and again, same thing -- just the hum.
    Then all of a sudden the starter turns and the engine kicks into life.
    It's got me stumped.

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Ralph's Avatar
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    Check the condition of the wiring to the motor and solenoid i.e. everything's tight and no corrosion. It might be worth pulling it out and lubricating what you can on it, from what I know they're a bugger to get to. If you can, thump it with a bit of wood while someone tries to start it. This can free up the little lever that goes from the solenoid to the starter motor contacts and will isolate your problem.


    If it's an auto you could also have a problem with your inhibitor switch that stops the car being started in any position except park and neutral. These wear and go out of alignment. This is located on the gearbox. Try starting it in neutral.

    Matt.
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  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! WAUTY205's Avatar
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    Is it making a “click” sound from the starter motor the second the key is turned? If it does it could be a stuffed starter solenoid (When the solenoid pulls in allow the power to get to the starter). My 205 has started to do it & usually takes about a few goes to get it to turn over (rather embarrassing ). I will be ordering a new one in the next few days. But if there is no sound, it could be one of the things already given by Matt.

    Will

  4. #4
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by 4WDrift
    .....So I try again and again and again, same thing -- just the hum.
    Then all of a sudden the starter turns and the engine kicks into life.....
    Let's just be really clear on this...

    The way you've written it, it seems that at some time while you have the key turned to start, the humming is happening, the starter isn't turning, and then the starter kicks in... is that right?

    Or is it that one time when you turn the key the starter works?

    If the latter, the bit of wood will free up the solenoid and you'll get it started fine. Hold the key, get someone to tap it while the key is turned to start.

    This is a solenoid problem, maybe as little as the thing needing cleaning.

    If it's the former, it could be something else, like the inhibitor switch as mentioned. Or maybe there's an inhibitor in the system that prevents it starting before pressure in the fuel system is up? I've never heard of it, but it could be...
    Last edited by Ray Bell; 21st October 2004 at 12:04 PM.

  5. #5
    Member 4WDrift's Avatar
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    My apologies for not making it clearer. First off, it is a 3 speed auto, 1985.
    Now, when I turn the key, it gives one click/tick, and makes a humming noise from the fuel pump.
    So I turn the key "off" and there's no noise.
    I try again, and it gives one click and makes a humming noise from the fuel pump.
    And so on.
    Then after trying this anything from a few times, up to 20 or more times, the starter motor turns and the engine fires up.

    Very frustrating and yes, embarrassing.

    From what I've read so far, it sounds like the solenoid, or possibly the inhibitor switch. I will do my best to isolate which one.

    Thanks for your help!

  6. #6
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Please, re-read my post about what I said wasn't clear...

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! WAUTY205's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4WDrift
    Now, when I turn the key, it gives one click/tick, and makes a humming noise from the fuel pump.
    So I turn the key "off" and there's no noise.
    I try again, and it gives one click and makes a humming noise from the fuel pump.
    And so on.
    Just elaborating on what I said earlier.
    Get someone to listen closely to the starter solenoid as you turn the key to confirm wether the click is from there. That click sound is almost certainly the solenoid operating & pulling the starter gear into mesh with the flywheel. If this is the case, hitting it with a bit of wood will probably not help as it is already operating. Hitting the solenoid will usually only work if the solenoid is stuck & won’t “pull in” or make the “click” sound. The problem that normally occurs is that the electrical contacts inside the solenoid that supplies power to the starter loses full contact over time & start to arc out making things even worse.
    If there is no sound coming from the solenoid, hit it with a bit of wood or it could be the inhibitor switch as said by the other guys.

    Will

  8. #8
    Member 4WDrift's Avatar
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    (Quote) A. The way you've written it, it seems that at some time while you have the key turned to start, the humming is happening, the starter isn't turning, and then the starter kicks in... is that right?

    B. Or is it that one time when you turn the key the starter works?



    Ray, see "B"
    White 505Gti just about fitted with XN & 5 Speed.


    "We have enslaved the rest of animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form."
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  9. #9
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Excellent...

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Agree with all of the contributions to this problem.

    My experience (same symptoms) resulted in the removal of the starter for overhaul. The front & end plate bushes had mild wear, and the brushes were due for replacement. The solenoid was quite OK.

    As per advice from earlier Peugeot -L (USA) Group, I made up a wiring loom to supply power to the starter solenoid via a relay. This relay (on the Series 2 505's) can be located between the headlight relays, which are on a bracket between the N/Side headlight and the battery.

    A quick look at the existing wire gauge to the starter solenoid will explain the voltage drop (and resultant problems). In my case, the difference in starter response (notwithstanding the overhaul) has been very noticeable.

    Re the humming sound (fuel pump?), I understood that power to the fuel pump was initiated by the Tachymetric Relay, which closed the power circuit to the fuel pump once the engine was rotated by the starter, and ignition pulses were detected.

    Cheers,
    Kim.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    It must be strange starter month.

    Tried to start the pug, nothing.

    Lots of clicking though. ARRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHhhhhhhh. Gave it a bit of a wack, rocked the car whilst in gear, wacked again....etc, etc. No good.

    Oh well looks like my starter has finally given up the ghost. Its been asking for an overhaul for a while now. I had gotten used to the first go whiiring

    later

    shobbz
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  12. #12
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Lots of clicking?

    That's more likely a flat battery...

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Lots of clicking?

    That's more likely a flat battery...
    Thats what i thought but i hooked it up to another battery?

    It sounded like the solenoid was going on/off/on/off/on/off repeatedly, but not engaging anything.

    Tis odd, don't feel like taking starter motor off.

    Bad pug.

    shobbz
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  14. #14
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    You are describing exactly what a low battery level produces...

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    You are describing exactly what a low battery level produces...
    .

    Tomorrow the pug starts from a direct 240v feed.

    Will give the battery another charge tonight, the end may be nigh for this battery.

    shobbz
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  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Yes, you may have a battery on the way out. Dying cells produce a voltage drop, which firstly effects the ability of the solenoid to operate the 'Bendix' drive and starter motor contacts.

    Note, this problem (with a dying battery) is delayed for a while with a starter relay installation. This is because the solenoid will now receive all of the available battery voltage, without the voltage drop which occurs when the current flows via the wire loom, through the ignition key contacts, and then back to the solenoid. Headlight & driving light relays are used for the same purpose.

    Cheers,
    Kim.

  17. #17
    WLB
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    4WDrift,
    How many k's has it done? Sounds like brushes to me.

    Shobbz,
    If you get the rat a tat tat from the solenoid, and it's not a low battery, crook relay, or wiring voltage drop, it's usually the solenoid contacts. The plunger no longer makes sufficient contact with the contacts due to wear, burning, etc. Getting the solenoid off with the starter motor in place is not easy on a 505, but not impossible.

    Similarly, removing the starter is not easy, but not quite as hard as it looks. Take it out from underneath. Put a jack under the cross-member and replace the cross-member bolts with longer ones. 604 head bolts are ideal - same thread and just the right length. Lower the jack and cross-member. The access to the starter is now much better, but not fantastic. If you're lucky enough to still have the plastic sound deadening panel intact, say goodbye to it as it will probably get smashed trying to get to the bolts.

    Good luck.

  18. #18
    Member 4WDrift's Avatar
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    Just under 200.000 K's I'm told, though the odometer is cactus so I'm not sure...
    White 505Gti just about fitted with XN & 5 Speed.


    "We have enslaved the rest of animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form."
    William Ralph Inge

  19. #19
    WLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4WDrift
    Just under 200.000 K's I'm told, though the odometer is cactus so I'm not sure...
    My brushes went at around 180,000 km, but it was an inner suburban and CBD car for the first 140,000km of it's life, so it had a high number of starts to mileage ratio.
    One day it didn't start quite so promptly a couple of times. Nothing to really get your attention. Then a couple of days later when I went to leave work, nothing, just the lonely click of the solenoid. Flat battery I thought. But alas, a jump start made no difference and being an auto, I had to hire a trailer to get it home.

  20. #20
    Member 4WDrift's Avatar
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    That does it! This auto has got to go! Ah well, it was a steal at $1200, so I don't mind shelling out some extra hours and cash to get it all happening. I totally fell in love with it driving it home, what a car... we should all be issued with these things on our 18th birthday Can't believe I waited this long to find enlightenment.
    White 505Gti just about fitted with XN & 5 Speed.


    "We have enslaved the rest of animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form."
    William Ralph Inge

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