BA10 torque rating
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Default BA10 torque rating

    Does anyone know what the safe working limit, in terms of torque is for a BA10 5 speed gearbox attached to a 505GTi motor? I need to know as this figure will determine how much boost I can run as I don't want to brake anything. Is there an LSD centre for the 505. If so is it the same ratio as the regular Pug item (4.11:1 as far as I know)?
    Any help would be hugely appreciated

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Cant help with the torque figures but. Are you sure its a BA10?? STi's and GTi's came with BA7/5 as far as I know, unless in your engine swap you changed it but it would have had to be modified.

    I think it was decided that

    604 have the Torsen type LSD

    Very Late 505 Gti in Aust MIGHT have the Torsen (but I seem to remember unconfirmed of how many and exactly what year etc)

    Other options are Phantom Grip style LSD but there have been some bad and some good discussions on exactly how well they work. Usually depends on the strength of the original diff, it seems.

    Quaife do a 505 LSD but then your looking at $1300+ landed *I think from estimates*

    There have been some discussions on the Phantom Grip and Quaife on here before, mostly for the 205/306 crowd but with some of it for the 505, anyway it might help.

    Jono
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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crosspug
    Cant help with the torque figures but. Are you sure its a BA10?? STi's and GTi's came with BA7/5 as far as I know, unless in your engine swap you changed it but it would have had to be modified.

    I think it was decided that

    604 have the Torsen type LSD

    Very Late 505 Gti in Aust MIGHT have the Torsen (but I seem to remember unconfirmed of how many and exactly what year etc)

    Other options are Phantom Grip style LSD but there have been some bad and some good discussions on exactly how well they work. Usually depends on the strength of the original diff, it seems.

    Quaife do a 505 LSD but then your looking at $1300+ landed *I think from estimates*

    There have been some discussions on the Phantom Grip and Quaife on here before, mostly for the 205/306 crowd but with some of it for the 505, anyway it might help.

    Jono

    all 505 GTI's in this country had a BA7/5 in them

    the torque rating for a BA10/5 is around the 280Nm from memory

    which 604's had a LSD in them as i have never come across one in the many many 604's i have owned and driven

    if you are feeling lucky have a talk to your local dealer and see if they can still get the LSD kit for the diff as i bought one years ago from a dealer for not a lot of money
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    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    which 604's had a LSD in them as i have never come across one in the many many 604's i have owned and driven
    Woops, my mistake I was under the impression they did. Don't know why?
    1989 BX16Valve

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  5. #5
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    My estimates:

    BA10 280-300Nm

    BA7 probably around 220Nm

    Both of these figures can be exceeded if you're gentle on take offs, but if you're abusive, they have been know to break at around these torque levels.

    The most torque that Peugeot ever put through these in a production car was 280Nm for the BA10 in the 505 turbo evolution model and 194Nm for the BA7 in the left hand drive 505GTi.

    The BA7 was originally designed for the 140Nm of torque provided by the 1.8 litre engine in the original 504 and the BA10 was originally designed for the 210Nm of torque of the original 2.7 litre PRV V6 (245Nm in rally trim). In both cases they were eventually required to transmit around 30% more torque in the 505 models, so they definitely squeazed what they could out of these gearboxes.

    Production racing versions of the 505 turbo put 330Nm through the BA10, so I guess they can handle that figure reasonably well if treated respectfully.

    Dave
    Last edited by davemcbean; 13th October 2004 at 06:23 PM.
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    For Australian Delivery only some 505 Wagons had LSDs, although 604s and some 505s sedans did in places like Canada etc.

    I believe that no RWD Peugeot has the Torsen diff ex factory, these first appeared in the MI16*4 which has a similar rear diff to the 604s, 505s and 504s.

    The Peugeot factory LSD for the RWD Peugeots (donít know where the term Phantom grip came from) is a spring loaded cone arrangement and I have these in both my 505 and 504. With the Torque of a V6 they work very well however the Torsen is undoubtedly better. The 504 has been used at club sprints for years and has worked reliably for all that time. The Peugeot factory LSD bits are around $600 new last time I checked so about half the price of a Torsen.
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    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    donít know where the term Phantom grip came from
    Its another aftermarket brand like quaife. But different.

    Jono
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    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

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    Default 505 'box

    So can I safely assume that the gearbox I have will be dependable so long as I don't go trying any hard launches or burnouts? I don't want huge power figures, just a good torque curve. Is there anything I can do to preserve g/box life? If not can it be strengthened in some way without having to have straight cut gears custom made? With the engine running only minimal boost (6-7 psi) is it (the gearbox) likely to suffer any ill effects from rolling acceleration, which is where turbo cars really seem to excel?
    Cheers to all for the comments and feedback so far, much appreciated.

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Keep the oil levels up in it (yeah, they leak...) and, in my opinion, use 85 gear oil rather than engine oil. Also, change the oil occasionally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    So can I safely assume that the gearbox I have will be dependable so long as I don't go trying any hard launches or burnouts? I don't want huge power figures, just a good torque curve. Is there anything I can do to preserve g/box life? If not can it be strengthened in some way without having to have straight cut gears custom made? With the engine running only minimal boost (6-7 psi) is it (the gearbox) likely to suffer any ill effects from rolling acceleration, which is where turbo cars really seem to excel?
    Cheers to all for the comments and feedback so far, much appreciated.
    How did you manage to find a BA10 with the Douvrin bell housing?
    Torsen diffs were fitted to some of the 505 turbos.
    Graham

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    We don't actually know that he has a BA10, Graham... he hasn't actually said anything on that since it was pointed out to him that it wasn't the usual fitment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    We don't actually know that he has a BA10, Graham... he hasn't actually said anything on that since it was pointed out to him that it wasn't the usual fitment.
    That's why I asked the question! They actually came out on the 2 litre Douvrin cars.
    Graham

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    That's why I asked the question! They actually came out on the 2 litre Douvrin cars.
    Graham

    the BA10's did arrive in the turbo cars and 95% of the 4 pot tagoras

    so if you can source some talbot parts you are bound to come across housings to put behind an STI/GTI engine with a BA10
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  14. #14
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    the BA10's did arrive in the turbo cars and 95% of the 4 pot tagoras

    so if you can source some talbot parts you are bound to come across housings to put behind an STI/GTI engine with a BA10
    It's easier than that. New Zealand got the 2 litre STI. They had the BA10. That particular BA10 has the closer ratios like the 604 and 504 V6.

    Dave
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  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Default 505 g/box

    Sorry, I seem to have created some confusion by stating that I have a BA10. From what I can tell from the replies above I have a BA7 5 speed. It was taken from an Aust. delivered 505STi (1983 model), although after reading the toque figures above I wish it was a BA10! From experience, can anyone tell me how tough the BA7/5 really is? I've been nursing mine slightly due to most Pug parts suppliers quoting upwards of $1500 to replace it. Rather expensive, but I guess you can't just walk into your local wreckers and grab one like you would with a T5 or something.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    but I guess you can't just walk into your local wreckers and grab one like you would with a T5 or something.
    Ahh no..

    5sp boxes are comming rare in the tooth.. $1500 is about the price you'd pay for a 2nd hand one with upteen thousand(s) ok Km..

    id be looking at getting everything strenghtened.. or adapting another stronger box..

    by the way.. are you getting all your pug work down locally.. ?? Im traveling down to Eurocenter at Turgah but if there is a guy in newy with half a clue.. ?? Who's doing all that crazy exhaust work for you? Id love to see the end results..

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    If the BA10 is more or less readily available in New Zealand, I would grab one...

    However, my BA7/5 came history-unknown from a lightly-crashed wrecked 505, has done over 300,000kms since fitting with probably over 60,000kms towing a trailer.

    It's been used and abused over all manner of dirt roads, farm tracks and suchlike, as well and left to fend for itself as I ignorantly refused to check the oil level.

    It now has a whining reminder that it emits to show me that it didn't like that ignorance, but it still goes. And goes well.

  18. #18
    Gus
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    Default Toyota 5 speed?

    Have you thought about the 5-speed supra/celica box that places like the Castlemaine Rod Shop always seem to use?

    It'd be a bit more work, but it's meant to bulletproof. Also probably easier to find replacements if it turns out to be, er, not bulletproof .

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie
    Ahh no..

    5sp boxes are comming rare in the tooth.. $1500 is about the price you'd pay for a 2nd hand one with upteen thousand(s) ok Km..

    id be looking at getting everything strenghtened.. or adapting another stronger box..

    by the way.. are you getting all your pug work down locally.. ?? Im traveling down to Eurocenter at Turgah but if there is a guy in newy with half a clue.. ?? Who's doing all that crazy exhaust work for you? Id love to see the end results..
    I think you mean long in the tooth!
    BA10s are quite common at Pick a Part for a couple of hundred and there are a growing number of BA7s turning up.
    Graham

  20. #20
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    How much are the BA7/5s fetching?

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Default 505GTi

    Bowie, all the regular mechanical work I have done on my car is done by Darren Fullerton, owner of Bellevue motors in Whickham, I can't recommend him highly enough. He's actually got my car at the moment fitting the 2mm copper head gasket (to reduce the CR). Pete at Newcastle mufflers has handled all exhaust aspects of my car since I got it on the road, and will be making the turbo manifold and I/C plumbing some time this week. He's pretty handy with a welder and best of all he charges very little for what he provides.
    All: is there a way that I can adapt a BA10 to the ZDJL so that I can make a more durable drivetrain? Would such a conversion require a custom bellhousing or would it be possible to mix and match different g'box parts so that it will fit?

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Default Supra gearbox

    The Supra/Celica gearbox would be great but due the 505 having a sealed tailshaft (see also:torque tube) either option would necessitate a diff conversion, custom driveshafts, custom hubs..... where would the spending end?

  23. #23
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I think you need to go back and read Dave McBean's post, Max...

    2-litre 505 STis in New Zealand apparently have the box you want. That's not far away... if you want the easiest and safest route, see how you go sourcing one there.

    As for the Supra box, it's been done many times, does not require any change to diff or rear end.

    Hunt through this forum (use search...) and find the thread with a photo story on how to do it... about a year or 18 months ago, I think.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    How much are the BA7/5s fetching?
    The one price for all 5 speeds, $200-$300 as I remember.
    Graham

  25. #25
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Must be getting close to time to snap them up before they're all gone...

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