Supercharging Mi16?
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  1. #1
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    Default Supercharging Mi16?

    Has anyone on the board managed to install a low boost (6-8lb) super charger set up on their Mi16 with the stock compression ratio (9.5/1)? If so did you use a decomp type head gasket or plate?

    Chris.

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    That would make the Mi even more of a weapon. Problem is though, if its a series 1 where would it fit? If you somehow go ahead with it though keep us posted cause i was thinking of some force induction someday.
    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by SmothePeanut
    Problem is though, if its a series 1 where would it fit?
    Stick it where the A/C compressor is. Plumbing on the other hand is your problem.

    Cal.
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    I looked into doing that to my 16 Valve. Same motor as the Mi16. The removal of the A/C Compressor looks like the easiest and best fit, plumbing will be a problem unless you fit a front mount intercooler. If you get a cooler just run the pipe out on the drivers side to the cooler then back in near the air box on the passenhers side and onto the inlet manifold.

    Compression? Yeah i think youd need to drop it. A set of lower comp pistons from PeterT's USA supplier might be the go!

    Anyone else got any ideas?

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    Should have said so earlier, it's for a BX16v. Had been looking at throwing away the air con pump and condenser which I think would allow for enough room. May be able to move the radiator forward as well but won't know till I start pulling tin ware off. If I could convince myself that an o-ring job and extra thick head gasket to lower the comp would hold together would be willing to give it a shot, has anyone tried this?

    Chris.

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    ok.....I m not sure how different the mounting points between the mi16 and 205 gti 1.9 for the AC are......however if they are similar, the MR2 (toyota) early supercharged version carried a belt driven job thats almost perfect for a 205gti...I know because I had it in my hands and have taken appropriate measurements....all thats needed to mount one is an extra washer or two on either side of the mounting points on the block......the problem is the secondary mounting point.....and I suspect that one of the easier ways to provide the secondary point is of the bottom radiator support...natuarlly one would have to allow for movement when engine is running...to be honest I haven t sussed it all out yet....just to busy (car is still in pieces)....
    Ducting could be an issue in a bx16v engine bay but I m sure there is a way around it (look at some street machines and you can quckly see that factory instalations can be clened up a fair bit and room can be made).......and then there is the issue of a decompression plate/gasket (i was quoted a few hundred dollars for a hand made copper job)......Fueling could be a prob 2......
    I haven t abandoned the idea completely but there are lots of issues to consider....least of them being the size of pulley one runs....
    I was under the impression that the rod shop in castlemaine had done (supercharged) a 205GTi (a few years back)and apparently ran via factory ecu.....


    cheers


    dino

    ps....the other thing that I always wondered.....Is there a way of decompresising this engine via INLET manifold modifications????

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    Quote Originally Posted by dino
    ...the other thing that I always wondered.....Is there a way of decompresising this engine via INLET manifold modifications????
    What the???

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    exactly my thoughts.....but a few years back before I evn knew of AF I had most of my GTi in pieces......when I bought the car I almost emidiatelly attacked it and started sorting some of its issues.....One of the things I had done was take the inlet manifold and trotle body for a proffesional clean (cost me all of 6 beers as the shop was a few hundred meters down the road from the old malver autoibarn).....anyway after picking up the sparkling clean manifold/thortle body back I mentioned the idea of supercharging the 205 (to one off the guys at the engine rebuliding shop that did the cleaning).....he kind of erred at another bloke behind the counter, an eledrly guy who I talked to about getting a new decompression gasket made...then he mentioned something about modifying the inlet manifold.....I was bevildered and can not for the hell of me remeber what he was on about......The only thing that comes to mind is modifying the head perhaps around the inlet valve and possibly even exhaust.....but that just sounded like lunacy considering how nicely these heads flow....the chances of stuffing things up seemed more likely.......either way I wasn t going to let anybody touch this head as it had only been replaced some 40K before I bought the car.....
    So yeah...go figure......I still don t get it.....


    cheers


    dino

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Default supercharge

    presuming that you can swing the blower off the a/c comp mount, you still need an engine point third mounting point for belt tensioner. I used drilled and retapped waterpump bolt and timing chain cover bolt hole for this (on 403). Forget about intercooler. forget about compression ratio. Underdrive blower by fitting smaller pulley at crank. Might take a couple/few of different pulley setups to get it set at 2/3lb boost.
    At this point, minimum messing about blower on and working and you can adjust other variables to suit eg more cooling, more boost, more fuel, timing etc.
    Meanwhile buy a secondhand motor to rebuild to the spec that you now know that you want because you're already involved in supercharging! Not what someone else told you, sorry if it didnt work,. and here I am telling you, oh well, start with low underscore low boost.

    Cheers edgedweller

  10. #10
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    presuming that you can swing the blower off the a/c comp mount, you still need an engine point third mounting point for belt tensioner. I used drilled and retapped waterpump bolt and timing chain cover bolt hole for this (on 403). Forget about intercooler. forget about compression ratio. Underdrive blower by fitting smaller pulley at crank. Might take a couple/few of different pulley setups to get it set at 2/3lb boost.
    At this point, minimum messing about blower on and working and you can adjust other variables to suit eg more cooling, more boost, more fuel, timing etc.
    Meanwhile buy a secondhand motor to rebuild to the spec that you now know that you want because you're already involved in supercharging! Not what someone else told you, sorry if it didnt work,. and here I am telling you, oh well, start with low underscore low boost.

    Cheers edgedweller




    well...I came to the same conclusion...and will probably end up doing exactly that....start with low boost and take it from there....yes you are right about the belt tensioner.....I was going to use a tensioning rod(style) very similar to the ones used on the older mercs alternators......a nut at the end of a threaded rod mounted of the block...a very simple set up and easy to adjust....
    I ended up buying the s16 so that kind of placed the 205gti project on the backburner but the moment I finish up with the 280s and the audi....the gti will go into the garage and will hopefully be sorted in the next six months or so....


    cheers


    dino

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    Quote Originally Posted by dino
    yes you are right about the belt tensioner.....
    Huh......how do you think one tightens the belt now?

    Cal.
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  12. #12
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    Thought about this last night:

    1. Rotrex SP30 supercharger
    2. PeterT cam
    3. Bigger Injectors
    4. Lower comp pistons
    5. Aftermarket ECU (haltec or somethin)
    6. Small intercooler
    I think you could get away with it for under 10 grand, if your gonna change pistons might consider doing the rods and crank as well, and get the motor balanced. The only issue would be space and running the plumbing for the cooler, its very tightly packed in a BX as most of you know! Im not sure about the PUG. On the BX a very thin cooler could fit in the air dam on the front bar, i just think the fog lights might get in the way of the plumbing a bit. I might take some photos and ideas!

    Im all excited now Really thinking of a 10 grand loan from the bank and doing it! so so tempting! Sorry to steal your idea Chris. You do it first and ill follow you!
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    ahhh.....yeaah that would be nice cal. ie use existing belt tension mount,...but in the case of the pug and the mr2 supercharger it appeared that the pulleys needed changing for a start (diferent style of belt) and secondly the supercharger was not in line with existing belt position ....it was about 1.5cm out....
    So yeah,...I suppose one could hunt further for something thats a perfect match but its going to be a long shot, much easier to fabricate a seperate bracket that enables adjustment re tbelt tension.....I still like the threaded mercedes design as it allows easier mounting from a couple of points of the block and the fact that it can be bent to match which is a lot harder with a sliding" style mount.....
    The other option would be to "grind" back AC mounts so supercharger fits "in" on one side and "out" on the other,...using washers to pack till full alignement with main pulley is achieved.....
    I m sure there is many differnt ways around it....the important thing is that its not impossible (by far)....all thats needed is some time, money and carefull consideration of problems at hand.....



    cheers


    dino

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    I dont think 10 grand will cut it...

    this is the pricelist from pommy CitroenSport specialists GMC Motorsport for their Saxo VTS Supercharger kit...

    1- SP30/64 Charger with Bracket, Rollers, Oil Tank and Fixings 1736.00
    1- Aluminium Welded Construction Intercooler 350.00
    1- Aluminium Welded Construction Radiator 350.00
    1- Cooling Fan Kit 80.00
    1- Aluminium Header Tank 55.00
    1- Rad Cap 5.00
    1- Alternator Bracket (VTR Type) 45.00
    1- Oil Cooler 60.00
    1- Drive Belt 1180mm 80mm Pulley 21.00
    1- MF2 Unit + GMC Signal Conditioner 3 450.00
    1- 2bar MAP Sensor 78.00
    1- Large Injector 70.00
    1- Aluminium double Injector Holder 90 Degree Bend 55.00
    1- Injector Fuel Fitting Kit 10.00
    1- Injector Electric Connector Kit 6.50
    1- Boost Pipe No 1 94.00
    1- Inlet Chrome Pipe No4 87.00
    1- Intake Hose 10.00
    1- K+N Air filter Element 27.00
    1- 200mm Fuel Hose 3.00
    6- Stainless fuel Hose Clips 9.00
    1- Samco Hose 51mm Joiner 6.00
    1- Fuel Hose T Piece 3.50
    1- Samco Hose 50mm x 22mm Diameter 2.00
    1- Samco Hose 63mm x 51mm Diameter 22.00
    2- Samco Hose 45 Degree Bends x 51mm Diameter 44.00
    1- Samco Water Hose 450mm x13 mm 10.00
    1- Samco Water Hose 450mm x 10 mm 9.00
    7- Stainless Steel Hose Clips 60mm 10.50
    1 - Stainless Steel Hose Clips 70mm 2.00
    2- Stainless Steel Hose Clips 35mm 3.20
    2- Stainless Steel Hose Clips 25mm 3.20
    2- Stainless Steel Hose Clips 19mm 2.00
    2- Intercooler Mounting Grommets 2.40
    4- BCR8ES Spark Plugs 14.00

    TOTAL 3676.30

    ...and that is just to fit the supercharger system. Although we are talking about taking this...



    ...from 75-80 HP to 140-155 HP or the 16valve saxo from 92-100 HP to 175-185 HP.

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    Very Tru Xsara VTS. Not sure if an SP30 would be the right blower, i just noticed the Saxo guys use them, checked the website and saw that they are recomended for engines with a displacment of 2 - 2.5 litres.

    Might even have a look on the dreded EBAY for a blower and it would break as soon as it comes on boost no doubt.

    Pistons NFI at least1 grand, there usually 250 - 350 each!

    As for an ECU, the EMS Stinger isnt too bad, i know a few people with rice mobiles (S13 silvias, Skylines etc) that use them and swear by them, i was quoted 1600 - 1700 by Ricol who is a authorised dealer. Also i think MYT205 had one in his NOS PUG.

    PeterT's cam is usually 200 i think and injectors im not too sure....


    But thanks for your input, mabye a 15 grand loan will be more suffice!
    1989 BX 16 Valve Mk1 - SOLD (And Missed)
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    if you were going to all this trouble wouldnt you also want to get the head flowed and polished - to make proper use of all this extra air??
    1992 mi16 1.9 litre - it's a love hate realtionship.

    whatever you do NEVER tell anyone your car is reliable. doesn't matter how much wood you touch!

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    Spending lots of money is fairly easy to do but not what i'm after for the BX16v.

    Have used one of the smaller Mr2 blowers on a 2.2 engine (subaru) before and they are not up to the job, they dont displace enough air. The same type of blower as used on the six cylinder is ok and cheap at $250 from the wreckers and not that much larger in physical dimensions. Don't see the prospect of fabricating brackets to suite these twin screw chargers as being a particularly big problem, just time consuming.

    Though I know very little about this side of it had hoped a piggy back adaption of a Haltech or similar to might take care of the fuel delivery department?

    If the line from supercharger outlet to inlet manifold can be acheived without any wicked bends the inlet charge temp might be low enough with out the need for an intercooler. Trial and error here I suspect. Does anyone have a spare inlet manifold from a BX16v that I could chop up?

    The main problem of a cost efective way of lowering the comp ratio to about 8.5/1 remains. How do you calculate the thickness for a decomp plate/head gasket that would result in this sort of drop and what would it be best made out of? Would a single plasma cut copper gasket work or would a aluminium spacer sandwiched between two copper sheets be the go? Bearing in mind a maximum target of 8lb boost.

    Chris.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Dunham
    Spending lots of money is fairly easy to do but not what i'm after for the BX16v.

    Have used one of the smaller Mr2 blowers on a 2.2 engine (subaru) before and they are not up to the job, they dont displace enough air. The same type of blower as used on the six cylinder is ok and cheap at $250 from the wreckers and not that much larger in physical dimensions. Don't see the prospect of fabricating brackets to suite these twin screw chargers as being a particularly big problem, just time consuming.

    Though I know very little about this side of it had hoped a piggy back adaption of a Haltech or similar to might take care of the fuel delivery department?

    If the line from supercharger outlet to inlet manifold can be acheived without any wicked bends the inlet charge temp might be low enough with out the need for an intercooler. Trial and error here I suspect. Does anyone have a spare inlet manifold from a BX16v that I could chop up?

    The main problem of a cost efective way of lowering the comp ratio to about 8.5/1 remains. How do you calculate the thickness for a decomp plate/head gasket that would result in this sort of drop and what would it be best made out of? Would a single plasma cut copper gasket work or would a aluminium spacer sandwiched between two copper sheets be the go? Bearing in mind a maximum target of 8lb boost.

    Chris.
    Chris, I know of a supercharger for sale if you're keen
    Dave
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  19. #19
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    Dave,

    What sort of blower is it?

    Cheers,

    Chris.

  20. #20
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    Default supercharging

    Toyota 4agze blowers available at most jap wreckers for $300
    2 types available to suit 2lt or 1600.

    add gates pulley to existing crank pulley, 3 bolts, allows changing pulley easily to increase/decrease boost.

    Alternator, water pump and crank on one pulley as standard
    added pulley at crank, blower and tension off other gates belt

    belt tensioner, as adapted from another altenator, off other bolt point on block, waterpump for instance.

    pulley at crank smaller than pulley on blower will underdrive blower therefore reducing boost, start low, you would be suprised what 2/3 lb will do.

    should be able to do all this with some engineering assistance for about $1,500 including carburation. cheers edgedweller

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by enthused!
    if you were going to all this trouble wouldnt you also want to get the head flowed and polished - to make proper use of all this extra air??
    The head on an XU9J4 flows 290cfm in standard trim. Thats pretty good for a stock head! When the BX16V's were raced at Bathrust (james hardie 1000) in 92 they sent the head away and were told that it cant be ported, its allready ported. Bigger valves would be an advantage i guess for more air and a harder ground cam but thats about all you do to the head.
    1989 BX 16 Valve Mk1 - SOLD (And Missed)
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Dunham
    Spending lots of money is fairly easy to do but not what i'm after for the BX16v.

    Have used one of the smaller Mr2 blowers on a 2.2 engine (subaru) before and they are not up to the job, they dont displace enough air. The same type of blower as used on the six cylinder is ok and cheap at $250 from the wreckers and not that much larger in physical dimensions. Don't see the prospect of fabricating brackets to suite these twin screw chargers as being a particularly big problem, just time consuming.

    Though I know very little about this side of it had hoped a piggy back adaption of a Haltech or similar to might take care of the fuel delivery department?

    If the line from supercharger outlet to inlet manifold can be acheived without any wicked bends the inlet charge temp might be low enough with out the need for an intercooler. Trial and error here I suspect. Does anyone have a spare inlet manifold from a BX16v that I could chop up?

    The main problem of a cost efective way of lowering the comp ratio to about 8.5/1 remains. How do you calculate the thickness for a decomp plate/head gasket that would result in this sort of drop and what would it be best made out of? Would a single plasma cut copper gasket work or would a aluminium spacer sandwiched between two copper sheets be the go? Bearing in mind a maximum target of 8lb boost.

    Chris.
    Chris

    PeterT sometimes buys higher comp and lower comp pistons from the USA. Usually only in bulk buys but, and i know they make lower comp pistons for forced induction applications. As for decompression plates i have NFI in that department! But ill have a look around for some info for you!
    1989 BX 16 Valve Mk1 - SOLD (And Missed)
    http://www.bx16v.cjb.net
    1992 R32 GTSt Skyline

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts David Shearer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Dunham
    Dave,

    What sort of blower is it?

    Cheers,

    Chris.
    Hi Chris,

    Have a look at this thread if you want and let me know. Blower is in melbourne.

    Supercharger For Sale

    Dave
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  24. #24
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    Dave,

    Thanks, have one of those blowers left over from a sub project.

    Regards,

    Chris.

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