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  1. #1
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    Default Performance Rebuild

    Hi there, I was wondering if anyone would tell me what it would cost for some sort of performance rebuild on an 85' 505 gti engine, because im thinking about installing a turbo to it. Also what would be the biggest turbo I could install without destroying my engine from too much boost ?

    cheers, Glen

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I wouldn't think there'd be too many around here with actual experience in this field... and it comes to mind that recently there was a 505 turbo engine and box advertised on this forum which might have been a better way to go.

    That said, I would think that bigger is not always better with turbos. 'Bigger' gives top end and power that comes with a rush at revs, while a small turbo gives grunt through the whole range.

    You have a lot of issues to look at here, not the least of which is the lack of space in your engine bay!

  3. #3
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    Hey Pugman,
    the person that may have a bit of experience in turbocharging 4 cylinder pugs is Bill Hamilton, he's in the PCCV. He turbocharged a TI engine and got about a 50% increase in power with 7 pounds of boost. He's got a manifold setup for a TI or square port engine for turbo, but i think it wouldn't go on a GTI engine - they've got a different cylinder head system.
    Another bloke to talk to is a guy called Daniel, also in the PCCV. I can't remember his surname though. He's running a turbocharged 4 cylinder 505, and i think it's a GTI, at least it's got the GTI bodykit. He's had some problems, but he's definitely someone to talk to as well.

    Like Ray says, bigger isn't always better.

    Seeya,
    Andrew

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    Hey PuGmAn,
    let me know when you find out some more info...


    84 505 GTi - Sold to a friend... written off 3 months later

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    Quote Originally Posted by petermc505
    Hey PuGmAn,
    let me know when you find out some more info...

    I am driving a standard GTI (in good condition) around at the moment and it certainly does not go as well as my other GTI motor with Megasquirt aftermarket ECU and air flow meter removed.
    The Megasquirt car revs quickly to valve bounce (over 7000) and is very responsive to the throttle whereas the standard motor tops out at about 6000.
    Peter, Come along to the next PCCV meeting, you can talk to Bill and have a look at Daniel Martins turbo GTI.
    8-00pm 1st Friday in November at the Boroondara Civic Centre theatrette, Inglesby Rd Camberwell
    Graham.
    Last edited by GRAHAM WALLIS; 5th October 2004 at 04:12 PM.

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    Cheers Graham,
    Sounds interesting. Isn't the meeting only for PCCV members though?


    84 505 GTi - Sold to a friend... written off 3 months later

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    Quote Originally Posted by petermc505
    Cheers Graham,
    Sounds interesting. Isn't the meeting only for PCCV members though?
    New or intending members (or even people coming along to see what we are about) are always welcome.

    See you there

    Jarrod

  8. #8
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    hey guys,
    dont know what help i can b but i'm turboing my 504 ti.
    i'm only using a baby T02 but i also have a T03. the T03 is going on a gti. the ti's run a c/r of 8.35:1, which is really low for a n/a engine but it does allow, according to ats (adelaide turbo services) 10 psi non-intercooled and 12 psi intercooled. if u added water injection i think 15-18 psi would be possible. u would have to run premium to eliminate detination but the water injection should take care of most of that.
    if i were u i would run a T03, this isze turbo is what is on our stock turbo skyline. this is what those boys throw out when they upgrade so getting one should not be an overly hard or expensive job.

    pretty much bolt it on, get urself a boost gauge and a/f ratio gauge and u'll be set. i dont know bout the gti's but i think the comp will adjust for the extra fuel needed due to the air flow meter. plumb this pre turbo along and possibly put a check valve in ur break vacuum line and u should be pretty rite.

    the ti i'm doing are all manual adjusting mixtures so i need the a/f ratio gauge but u may not.

    hope this helps.

    aaron

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    Quote Originally Posted by asa504
    hey guys,
    dont know what help i can b but i'm turboing my 504 ti.
    i'm only using a baby T02 but i also have a T03. the T03 is going on a gti. the ti's run a c/r of 8.35:1, which is really low for a n/a engine but it does allow, according to ats (adelaide turbo services) 10 psi non-intercooled and 12 psi intercooled. if u added water injection i think 15-18 psi would be possible. u would have to run premium to eliminate detination but the water injection should take care of most of that.
    if i were u i would run a T03, this isze turbo is what is on our stock turbo skyline. this is what those boys throw out when they upgrade so getting one should not be an overly hard or expensive job.

    pretty much bolt it on, get urself a boost gauge and a/f ratio gauge and u'll be set. i dont know bout the gti's but i think the comp will adjust for the extra fuel needed due to the air flow meter. plumb this pre turbo along and possibly put a check valve in ur break vacuum line and u should be pretty rite.

    the ti i'm doing are all manual adjusting mixtures so i need the a/f ratio gauge but u may not.

    hope this helps.

    aaron

    The TI uses manifold vacuum to set the fuel mixture and as the metering system is set up for NA operation and I can't see it working in a positive pressure situation. I take it you have considered this and will be going to EFI?
    The XN motor is a disaster for turbo charging, the head gasket arrangement is not up to it. 25 years ago Tubby Ritter did aftermarket conversions, none of which lasted more than a few months.
    Graham

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    Thanks graham,
    Yes i have taken this into account.
    As the ti uses this vacuum for fuel mixtures i am going to ensure that these hoses have check valves installed in them but i ask this...
    the vacuum for the fuel mix is plumbed into the plenum after the throttle body and hence, maximum vacuum occurs at closed throttle. As the throttle opens up, vacuum decreases and more fuel is delivered. At full throttle vacuum is zero and fuel should be close to maximum, so as boost comes on, vacuum will already be zero ensuring maximum fuel and the check valves will stop unwanted pressure in places where i am not sure of the outcome if they were to be pressurised, like the fuel mix.
    does this sound plausable??

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    Quote Originally Posted by asa504
    Thanks graham,
    Yes i have taken this into account.
    As the ti uses this vacuum for fuel mixtures i am going to ensure that these hoses have check valves installed in them but i ask this...
    the vacuum for the fuel mix is plumbed into the plenum after the throttle body and hence, maximum vacuum occurs at closed throttle. As the throttle opens up, vacuum decreases and more fuel is delivered. At full throttle vacuum is zero and fuel should be close to maximum, so as boost comes on, vacuum will already be zero ensuring maximum fuel and the check valves will stop unwanted pressure in places where i am not sure of the outcome if they were to be pressurised, like the fuel mix.
    does this sound plausable??
    If the fuel is at maximum at zero vacuum what happens as the boost comes on?
    I would have thought that extra fuel would be needed.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    If the fuel is at maximum at zero vacuum what happens as the boost comes on?
    I would have thought that extra fuel would be needed.
    Graham


    i have seen twin throttle body applications for N/A TI's and i have heard of twin pump setups as well but i have never seen one of these set ups

    maybe an electric clutch on a second pump for extra fuel maybe the go but you would still have to modify the manifold to fit the extra injectors
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    Quote Originally Posted by asa504
    Thanks graham,
    Yes i have taken this into account.
    As the ti uses this vacuum for fuel mixtures i am going to ensure that these hoses have check valves installed in them but i ask this...
    the vacuum for the fuel mix is plumbed into the plenum after the throttle body and hence, maximum vacuum occurs at closed throttle. As the throttle opens up, vacuum decreases and more fuel is delivered. At full throttle vacuum is zero and fuel should be close to maximum, so as boost comes on, vacuum will already be zero ensuring maximum fuel and the check valves will stop unwanted pressure in places where i am not sure of the outcome if they were to be pressurised, like the fuel mix.
    does this sound plausable??
    Try doing a search for BMW 2002 Tii. These cars are a 2L and also use a Kugalfischer mechanical injection system. I have heard of them being turbo'd before and there was even a factory turbo available. I don't know if the factory turbo used the same injection or not. If you can work out what modifications were done to achieve this you will be well on the way to sorting the Ti system.

    Jarrod

  14. #14
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    The Ti engines, the kugelfischer injection system, run a pump synchronized to the engine so an electric clutch such as that on your air con would not work and I really don稚 want to head in that direction.

    I think the standard item reconfigured should be sufficient. I could just run a pressure activated injector in the plenum which dumps extra fuel in under boost but this is rather crude and there is a better solution out there.

    Although I haven't looked at the kugelfischer system for quite a while as I haven't had the time, I知 sure the system has a throttle position device via vacuum. This is quite a complex system and there are around six hoses which run of the vacuum. One goes to the brake booster but the other I think are for fuel mixture, choke, cold start etc. I do have to redo or refresh my research but I知 sure I figured out a why to up fuel load without altering the mixture drastically. I do remember it would involve an a/f ratio gauge, oxygen sensor and a lot of road dyno'n. ... If I went to a dyno centre I could bet they'd pop the bonnet and all scratch their heads!!

    atm all I知 doing is building a strong n/a engine, I値l wait till its run in before playing around. Of course the plumbing and turbo will be fitted but I値l run it in with the wastegate held open.

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    Quote Originally Posted by asa504
    The Ti engines, the kugelfischer injection system, run a pump synchronized to the engine so an electric clutch such as that on your air con would not work and I really don稚 want to head in that direction.

    I think the standard item reconfigured should be sufficient. I could just run a pressure activated injector in the plenum which dumps extra fuel in under boost but this is rather crude and there is a better solution out there.

    Although I haven't looked at the kugelfischer system for quite a while as I haven't had the time, I知 sure the system has a throttle position device via vacuum. This is quite a complex system and there are around six hoses which run of the vacuum. One goes to the brake booster but the other I think are for fuel mixture, choke, cold start etc. I do have to redo or refresh my research but I知 sure I figured out a why to up fuel load without altering the mixture drastically. I do remember it would involve an a/f ratio gauge, oxygen sensor and a lot of road dyno'n. ... If I went to a dyno centre I could bet they'd pop the bonnet and all scratch their heads!!

    atm all I知 doing is building a strong n/a engine, I値l wait till its run in before playing around. Of course the plumbing and turbo will be fitted but I値l run it in with the wastegate held open.

    Why stuff around? Just go straight to EFI, much simpler and you know it's going to work. If you use Nissan injectors you won't need a fuel rail, just some machining on the manifold to hold the injectors.
    Graham

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    i have an extremely limited budget. turbo, intercooler, exhaust custom manifold and plumbing has cost me $250 ish. i dont have an income, just one of those benifits of being a student!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by asa504
    i have an extremely limited budget. turbo, intercooler, exhaust custom manifold and plumbing has cost me $250 ish. i dont have an income, just one of those benifits of being a student!!
    Then why turbo?
    Graham

  18. #18
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    i have two turbos already, one free one $50 which i re-bush. got an intercooler free.... well i work on mates cars and they usually pay in parts or beer.
    i have all the bits i need, the knowledge... i think and i want to do something different.
    and i have plenty of spares to play with. once i have the engine built i'll get pics for everyone.
    so far the bottom end, rods and pistons have been balanced, through a mate for the rite price. got new pistons, liners, ring, bearings etc... which where the most costly so far but thats what parents are for!!
    heads ported heavily on the exhaust side and cleaned up on the inlet side, got new cam followers and a custom grind curtosy of wade cams in melbourne. still waiting on chrome molly pushrods through crow cams. valve springs have been shimmed to up the tension but this may cause coil bind. i'm unsure wether i'll get coil bind yet as the motor is still in pieces.
    clutch is new and has also been balanced. most of the work is already done and i've thought of most things to build a nice daily driver.
    i will fabricate a blow off valve, borrowed one of a friend and took some measurements, and wastegate is internal so exhaust is easy. exhaust is a 2 and 1/2 mandral for back of turbo. i will also be fabricating a water injection system.
    will also be running a dual stage boost controller, simply a switch in the dash hooked up to a fuel cut (used along the boost bleed line) which they use when u put a car on gas. pretty much from the pressure side of the turbo u run a line with a tee piece, one which goes to the actuator and the other which goes to one of those of the shelf bleed valves from a jap import place, bout $85 worth tops. this line is where the electronic cut is. when shut the engine runs stock boost, about 7 psi, and once active u mearly set the boost to what ever u think. bit cheaper then those $250 plus units everyone else is selling.
    i usually put more effot into finding the cheaper solution them what it would take just to go and buy it!! i'm not online too often but feel free fto ask me any questions bout custom ideas. i usually have some solution.

    Aaron

  19. #19
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    Default 505GTi

    You will need to consider engine management if you want to add a turbo, particularly if big power figures are desired. It's more expensive than trying to trick the standard Bosch unit but far more accurate, and fully adjustable. Injectors may run out of flow once power starts to climb, interestingly the fuel pump (according to Repco) is the same as a VL comm. Turbo which is good for just over 200KW. You will need to address the pressure regulator also as it's not designed for boost. I'm using a Malpassi which gives 1.7:1 fuel to boost ratio. Decompress the motor if possible, if not then spend wisely on an intercooler/water injection setup and run low boost. Bin all of the factory polution gear and the air intake setup; it's not only restrictive in terms of flow but is very inefficient space wise. Once you have done this you'll have plenty of space for even a T04E with a decent manifold made to suit. As far as I know the GTi motor is fairly strong and should handle positive intake charge reasonably well, just don't rev it too hard. For an oil feed all you need is 3/8 STH with the right fittings, which should cost you about $70 from Pirtech or Enzed. You'll need a return welded/braised onto the side of the sump, investigate getting it baffled as well to avoid oil surge/starvation. My 505GR (GTi motor) will be up and running next week using a T25, EMS ECU and a Supra intercooler (small core but minimal pressure drop which reduces lag). I had a 2mm copper head gasket made to reduce any chance of detonation ($270) and am hoping for about 140KW on no more than .6bar. I'll keep you posted on the performance of it (and the cost!).

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    u have to excuse me, i get carried away some times, use to dribbling alot at uni.

  21. #21
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    thanks 505 to the max but as i'm goin all old school on the engine, i dont have any ecu or pollution gear to worry about. i hoping this is a ggod thing and doesn't drag into headackes which could've been taken care of but just using an electronic set up.
    i'll keep all posted on cost and performance but in the distant future rather then near.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    You will need to consider engine management if you want to add a turbo, particularly if big power figures are desired. It's more expensive than trying to trick the standard Bosch unit but far more accurate, and fully adjustable. Injectors may run out of flow once power starts to climb, interestingly the fuel pump (according to Repco) is the same as a VL comm. Turbo which is good for just over 200KW. You will need to address the pressure regulator also as it's not designed for boost. I'm using a Malpassi which gives 1.7:1 fuel to boost ratio. Decompress the motor if possible, if not then spend wisely on an intercooler/water injection setup and run low boost. Bin all of the factory polution gear and the air intake setup; it's not only restrictive in terms of flow but is very inefficient space wise. Once you have done this you'll have plenty of space for even a T04E with a decent manifold made to suit. As far as I know the GTi motor is fairly strong and should handle positive intake charge reasonably well, just don't rev it too hard. For an oil feed all you need is 3/8 STH with the right fittings, which should cost you about $70 from Pirtech or Enzed. You'll need a return welded/braised onto the side of the sump, investigate getting it baffled as well to avoid oil surge/starvation. My 505GR (GTi motor) will be up and running next week using a T25, EMS ECU and a Supra intercooler (small core but minimal pressure drop which reduces lag). I had a 2mm copper head gasket made to reduce any chance of detonation ($270) and am hoping for about 140KW on no more than .6bar. I'll keep you posted on the performance of it (and the cost!).

    Aaron is talking about the 504 TI motor, not 505 GTI.

    Sorry to be critical but I am just thinking about the finished product and if it will work OK. If you just want to have a bit of fun go for it!
    I'll bow out of this now.
    Graham

  23. #23
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    Default Turbos

    Apologies for backtracking slightly but how much was the 505 turbo motor (I'm guessing it was an N9TE) advertised for? How did anyone get one in Australia? As far as I know there are only three 505 turbos in Australia which were all specially imported.
    Is the 504Ti motor the same as that found in a 505SLi?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    Apologies for backtracking slightly but how much was the 505 turbo motor (I'm guessing it was an N9TE) advertised for? How did anyone get one in Australia? As far as I know there are only three 505 turbos in Australia which were all specially imported.
    Is the 504Ti motor the same as that found in a 505SLi?

    different injection setup on the SLi and basically not a good setup anyway
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    Quote Originally Posted by 505 to the max
    Apologies for backtracking slightly but how much was the 505 turbo motor (I'm guessing it was an N9TE) advertised for? How did anyone get one in Australia? As far as I know there are only three 505 turbos in Australia which were all specially imported.
    Is the 504Ti motor the same as that found in a 505SLi?
    Still for sale. Price is reduced to $1700.00. Includes everything you need.

    Check here for details

    Peugeot 505 Turbo Engine (petrol)

    Jarrod

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