Fuego Ignition ECU module
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  1. #1
    Member Jack Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Fuego Ignition ECU module

    The saga of the Fuego ignition ECU.


    I have received a stuffed ECU from a valued and helpful Forum member.

    Initial investigation has revealed itís a pretty simple module.

    The goal is to repair originals and to build a replacement using readily available parts. It may not be cheaper initially, but as supplies dry up, it will be a viable option.

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    OK Ė How it works (Iíll keep it simple)


    Coil.
    The coil is a transformer type ignition coil (which seems to be stuffed, but Iíll pull it apart to check, this will allow counting of the windings so we can tell which aftermarket item can be used).

    You WILL NOT be able to use a standard oil filled coil (eg: Bosch GT40), as its current requirements will blow the shit out of the ECU. I am looking at the possibility of using a transistor to act as a shunt so a standard coil can be used, so once I have the specs back from Bosch for their OTC transistorised coil, Iíll make something up and try it out. There are also a whole heap of ignition modules that will act as a shunt, so a bit of experimentation is going to be needed.

    Gonz has bought a new transistorised coil from Caravelle for about the same price as a Bosch unit, so for an easy fix, do the same. Iím investigating further for when the supply of NOS Renault stuff dries up.

    Vacuum.
    The hose from the induction manifold is attached to a very basic MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor. This is used as a glorified vacuum advance module. It ďprobablyĒ has a rubber diaphragm inside with an arm attached to a variable resistor. As you can imagine, the rubber perishes over time (especially in contact with air/fuel that is inevitable). I have repaired a very similar unit from a Ducati 750 Paso in the past Ė with reasonable success, so Iíll pull it apart and have a look.

    Iíll try and source an aftermarket unit with the same specs.

    Electronics.
    This is the difficult bit. All the electronics are encased in that black epoxy shit , so it will be a slow and painful task to dig it all out without stuffing it. Iím pretty sure Iíll find all solid-state stuff, and no fancy digital gizmos (EPROMS, CPUís), and it will be a basic transistor ignition Ė but it is French, so there could be anything in there from depleted uranium to little Eiffel tower models. Once apart, it should be easy to build a copy. Iíll put CCT diagrams and board layouts on the Forum.



    Thatís about it for the original.

    My long-term plan is to use a Wolf3D V4 ignition/injection ECU and do a complete custom system. This will eliminate all the standard ignition system, enable that stupid exhaust/induction pre heat to be binned, allow full sequential ignition and injection and increase performance and economy significantly. It will be expensive (hey, got to have a hobby), and need heaps of set up time, and take a couple of years to get right Ė but I love to fiddle.
    Never attribute to malice that which is adequatly explained by stupidity.

  2. #2
    Simon's Avatar
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    Default

    I reckon have a chat with Kym Oliver at Olivers and Skinners, Hampstead Rd Clearview. They have done conversions on Fuego ignition systems using "stock" coils, so may be able to shed light on what is involved.

    I've seen a couple of the converted cars, but as Fuego's are not really in my main sphere of interest I don't know what is involved.

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! jarrods's Avatar
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    Option 1
    Throw the feugo coil and ignition module away (or sell to someone who wants it) and build your own ignition from a kit (available from Jaycar). Then you can use a GT40 or similar. They even sell a programmable ignition kit.

    Option 2
    Get a coil and ignition module off another make of car that is more common that has the same trigger as the fuego

    Option 3
    As you mentioned upgrade to a programmable fuel/ignition or ignition only system. The megasquirt mentioned elsewhere on this forum would have to be the cheapest option and there are add on modules to do ignition as well. This would be far cheaper than a commercial system especially if you were just wanting to control a standard engine.

    Note I am not familiar with the feugo ignition system but isn't the motor a 2l variant of the engine in the 505 Sti/Gti. The Sti distributor would probably fit and doesn't have the map sensor you talk about it just has the normal vacuum advance. On coils there are aftermarket coils available to suit the Pug modules and I am sure any decent ignition specialist will be able to sell you a coil that will be suitable.
    As for trying to open up the genuine module you will probably find a whole lot of no name parts which are no longer available. You are probably better off looking at other options. As Feugo's become rarer I think ignition systems will be the least of your worries.

    Jarrod

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! MondeoST24's Avatar
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    Default

    Don't know if this info is any use, but a company called Delta Digital (www.delta-digital.com.au) make a programmable ignition module called the Deltamax. It's a very nice bit of gear and allows lots of points to be programmed as well as a temp input for retarding timing in hot weather.
    David
    Former 306 S16 owner- now own a Mondeo ST24 V6

  5. #5
    Member Jack Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Fuego ignition

    Deltamax sounds interesting, but its not that cheap, and is ignition only. The Wolf3D V4 is not that much more and will also do the custom injection I want to use.

    As for using Jaycay of other kits, most are a transistorised ignition BOOSTER, which uses point/optical/hall effect trigger from the distributor to trigger. Fuego doesnt have these outputs, and the "distributor" only transfers the spark created by the ignition module to the correct cylinder - a cheap way to do it, with no additional electronics and as the distributor drive was already there.

    Getting a system of another car with the same triggers is VERY difficult to match. Also wont have the originality for those who want it, or the flexibility for those who want to tinker.

    Megasquirt is a cheap easy system but wont control ignition (as far as I can see from thier website) and will not allow true sequential injection. It does batch/bank injection only.

    The Peugeot gear you mention may work, and I havent looked into it yet, but its a backward step to go to a distributor/pionts ignition - cheaper and easier, but not as good. You will almost certainly loose power,economy and smoothness over a properly working electronic ignition - thats why they are used, they are better.

    As for the no-name parts, any competent electronics technician/engineer can identify a component with no markings (with the exception of IC's - they are a bitch to work through. it can be done though). Thats why I'm doing it, so others without the skills and equipment to analyse the system, can repair thiers or build thier own.

    Try helping rather than making it seem too hard.
    Never attribute to malice that which is adequatly explained by stupidity.

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! jarrods's Avatar
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    I wasn't trying to make it sound so hard and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I admit that I am unfamiliar with the fuego system and next time I see one I will have a good look. How is this system triggered? After reading your response I feel I need to clarify a few points as I think you misunderstood me.

    The pug system I mentioned is not a points triggered system. It is a hall effect distributor triggering a Bosch ignition system and coil. It does how ever have a mechanical advance mechanism. Providing this is in good order I still maintain that this system will perform every bit as good as the fuego system in terms of smoothness, drivability and econonmy. It has performed faultlessly in the 2 pugs I have had with this system.

    I also referred to 2 kits available from Jaycar. The first is as you state, just method of triggering the coil and relys on inputs from your distributor. The second one I was talking about is a programmable unit that sits between your triggering unit (distributor or other) and your ignition module. It is programmable and calculates your advance curve, both mechanical and vacuum based on the information you program it with. If this kit is installed in a car with a distributor you lock the baseplate and modify the vacuum advance unit to trigger a switch. The unit modifies the timing based on your programming and can trigger a variety of ignition modules. The distributor then supplies the spark to the correct cylinder. Much the same way as the fuego system you describe except its programmable, and only about $60.00

    With reguard to the Megasqirt not being able to do ignition you are correct but there are add on modules available that are compatable with the megasquirt and are based on the same DIY concept. I think there are links to them on the megasquirt site.

    With regards to my comments about the insides of your existing unit it was the IC's I was thinking of. In order for an ignition system to calculate timing it needs either a look up table where it matches RPM/Load points and outputs the correct timing signal or a method of calculating the curve based on RPM/Load points. Both of these methods will require the use of IC's most of which are probably no longer available. And yes I am a Data Technician with an Ass. Dip. in Electronics.

    Ultimately the best scenario is a fully programmable fuel and ignition computer but is probably overkill on a standard engine and reasonably expensive. All I was trying to do was offer some alternatives that you might not of thought of. Mabe I could of expressed myself a little better but my intentions were good

    Good luck

    Jarrod

  7. #7
    Member Jack Daniel's Avatar
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    Default No worries - no offence taken

    No worries - no offence taken

    I'll have a look at the Peugeot and Jaycar system and see if they are alternatives
    Never attribute to malice that which is adequatly explained by stupidity.

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! MondeoST24's Avatar
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    Jack, how much can you get a Wolf 3D for? The Deltamax is $330- every aftermarket ECU I've seen is at least three times that price!

    The Jaycar programmable timing module is very dodgy... You can only set three points for timing and on the EA website (the designers of the kit) they even state that it's too crude for a car engine!! You also have to do some drastic mods to the pick up in the distributor for it to work.
    David
    Former 306 S16 owner- now own a Mondeo ST24 V6

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! jarrods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MondeoST24
    The Jaycar programmable timing module is very dodgy... You can only set three points for timing and on the EA website (the designers of the kit) they even state that it's too crude for a car engine!! You also have to do some drastic mods to the pick up in the distributor for it to work.

    Are we talking about the same thing. The unit I am tallking about was designed by Silicon Chip magazine in 1996 and has been updated and improved on over the years. It was definately designed for use on a car. I seem to remember Graham Wallis having one of these on a car a number of years ago. Maybe he can shed more light on it. I have one of these kits I built up a number of years ago but have never fitted it to a car. I can't however find the instructions. Next thurs when I am at TAFE I will photocopy the article.
    See below for link to Kit

    http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productVie...Max=&SUBCATID=

    Jarrod

  10. #10
    Member Jack Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Ecu

    Quote Originally Posted by MondeoST24
    Jack, how much can you get a Wolf 3D for? The Deltamax is $330- every aftermarket ECU I've seen is at least three times that price!
    Yep, 3 times that price is about on the mark. $'s arnt the issue, I want something reliable, versatile, proven, will do everything, and be flexible enough to allow for future 12 valve head and possible supercharger.

    Upgrading a unit or having to rebuild it will just piss me off.
    Never attribute to malice that which is adequatly explained by stupidity.

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! MondeoST24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarrods
    Are we talking about the same thing. The unit I am tallking about was designed by Silicon Chip magazine in 1996 and has been updated and improved on over the years. It was definately designed for use on a car. I seem to remember Graham Wallis having one of these on a car a number of years ago. Maybe he can shed more light on it. I have one of these kits I built up a number of years ago but have never fitted it to a car. I can't however find the instructions. Next thurs when I am at TAFE I will photocopy the article.
    See below for link to Kit

    http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productVie...Max=&SUBCATID=

    Jarrod
    My mistake- Silicon Chip's site, not EA. Do a search on their site and you should find what I'm talking about (someone was asking about fitting it to a motor vehicle and the response was along the lines of "Don't do it- it's too crude for a car")

    It surprised me when I read it.

    Just found it- under the Ferrari Ignition question: http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_30486/article.html
    David
    Former 306 S16 owner- now own a Mondeo ST24 V6

  12. #12
    Member Jack Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Fuego ignition coil

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon
    I reckon have a chat with Kym Oliver at Olivers and Skinners, Hampstead Rd Clearview. They have done conversions on Fuego ignition systems using "stock" coils, so may be able to shed light on what is involved.

    I've seen a couple of the converted cars, but as Fuego's are not really in my main sphere of interest I don't know what is involved.
    While speaking to Kim at Olivers here in Adelaide, I enquired as to his mod to fit a standard coil to Fuegos.

    He assured me that all he does is fit a Bosch GT40 coil to the body and wire it up. No mods are done other than extending the wires. These have aparently been working for years without a problem, and you could just as easily ude the Bosch Transformer Coil as well.

    I havent had a chance to pull the ECU apart yet, but when I do I suspect I'll find exactly what Kim has told me - use a GT40.

    I might still do a mod to use a transistor as a switching/triggering device for the GT40, so that current through the EUC is minimal.

    Probably wont happen till after Xmas as I'm moving to Perth. Any Fuego owners in Perth that would like to get together - drop me a line.
    Never attribute to malice that which is adequatly explained by stupidity.

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