renault gordini camshafts
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default renault gordini camshafts

    i am getting the cam reground in my 16ts powered r12 and i want to get a grind similar to that of the 160hp kit 12G. i have the large valves in it (44/39), twin dcoe webbers, port/polished head, shaved head, and exhaust/extractors, so i think the engine can handle a wild cam.
    my question is what specs would be suitable for my application?
    i want usable power between 2500 and 7000rpm, but i don;t wish to rev it more than that, or 3000-7000 perhaps.
    what deg. rotation is applicable?
    what is the lobe timing of the cam?

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3006882
    i am getting the cam reground in my 16ts powered r12 and i want to get a grind similar to that of the 160hp kit 12G. i have the large valves in it (44/39), twin dcoe webbers, port/polished head, shaved head, and exhaust/extractors, so i think the engine can handle a wild cam.
    my question is what specs would be suitable for my application?
    i want usable power between 2500 and 7000rpm, but i don;t wish to rev it more than that, or 3000-7000 perhaps.
    what deg. rotation is applicable?
    what is the lobe timing of the cam?
    First step is to measure or determine the static compression ratio. That combined with the stroke and rod length will start the ball rolling.

    '92 205 Mi16
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Default renault gordini camshafts

    A wild cam means nothing if you can get more fuel in but you can not get rid of it. A proper exhaust is essential. Compression Ratio is very important. If all this info is available and acceptable I would suggest a 300 degree duration cam with the intake lobe fully open when the crank is 110 degree ATDC. If you can not adjust the cam timing, ask the cam grinder to grind the cam according to the above specs. The duration mentioned is with 0.015 in. tappet clearance.
    Do yourself a favour and calculate the CR. You might be to high or not high enough. In both cases you are throwing HP away.

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Frans is on the right track, but it's possible to have two completely different profiles with 300 deg. @ 0.015" lift. The most important thing is to get the dynamic compression ratio correct. This needs to be around 8.5:1 for what you've described. If you know the data above I can point you in the right direction.

    The other important question is what type of fuel?
    Last edited by PeterT; 13th September 2004 at 10:39 PM.

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  5. #5
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    i'll just be running standard premium unleaded (98ron).

    i have a proper exhaust system on the car, so thats not an issue.

    i'll have to work out the c/r and let you know, the car will still run standard flat top pistons but with a shaved head to raise the c/r slightly.

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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Waggotts in the NSW Northern Rivers area have the original Gordini grinds of which I think there were four for the 807 engine depending on purpose of the vehicle. Renault went for long duration, lower lift performance cams. The standard cams do not last well if reground to have more than 400 thou lift at the valve. (265 thou at lobe)

    The Ivan Tighe Engineering(Brisbane)No. 154 grind works quite well with the standard cam and the mods you have noted. Remember to get your followers faced. Valve springs will also have to be uprated significantly. I expect you will also be running some sidedraft carbs as well.
    '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
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    yes i am running the twin side draughts. i was going to call wades in melourne as i've heard they do good work.

    what rating of spring do you suggest?

    do you know what the "applications" are that the cams were made for?

    how much is a new cam worth from waggots rather than a regrind?

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    A new cam made from a billet will cost around $400+. A good piece of steel to make it is $80 to start with.

    The Gordini cam profiles that I had written down(can't find) were for road, rally, circuit, and a Formula 2 type car.

    A regrind is around $100. It is the cheapest performance gain per $ of any mod. The 154 grind that I mentioned is around 30/75, 400 thou at valve and 108 degree LCA from memory. The standard 17TS had 40/72 with lift of maybe 335 thou at the valve.
    Valve spring around 75lb on the seat, 210lb on the nose. Talk to the cam grinder.
    I use Datsun L series retainers with the tops machined off as they are lighter. The spring base would also have to machined as well, if these were used.
    '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3006882
    i am getting the cam reground in my 16ts powered r12 and i want to get a grind similar to that of the 160hp kit 12G. i have the large valves in it (44/39), twin dcoe webbers, port/polished head, shaved head, and exhaust/extractors, so i think the engine can handle a wild cam.
    my question is what specs would be suitable for my application?
    i want usable power between 2500 and 7000rpm, but i don;t wish to rev it more than that, or 3000-7000 perhaps.
    what deg. rotation is applicable?
    what is the lobe timing of the cam?
    Do you have a R12 Gordini or R17 Gordini gearbox? If not, your current gear ratios may be a bit wide apart for a 160hp spec engine, which may result in dissapointing performance. Just thought I'd better bring this up, since nobody else has mentioned it yet.

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  10. #10
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    Yea thats What mine lacks, a close ratio box.

    It'd go so much better with some nice close ratio's.

    Pitty R17TS G/boxes are so rare.
    1967 1135 R8 Gordini
    2012 BMW One Series M Coupe

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    i may have actually come across a close ratio box.

    there are three boxes for me to play with, one is definately a fuego, one is definately a 17TS, but i'm not sure if the third is a 17TS or Gordini box.

    at any rate i have several boxes to play around with ratios.

    if all else fails, i can buy the correct ratio gears from mecaparts when i win the $19M in lotto this weekend, and who knows i may even shout a beer for the info you guys have shared?

    thats one beer between all of you... $19M doesn't go far these days!

  12. #12
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    3006882 you also have to consider that if you have a good 17TS box, how you are going to really drive the car, as these boxes are so rare these days how much stress do you want to give the box in ripping the last amount of horse power out of it for some fun....

    In my 15ts that has a tuned gordini motor, like yours in bits but below the 160 kit, it put's out around 140 or so on a good day :-).... I have a R18 5 speed box in it as I made the decision that when I am in a sprint or the GP rally I can flog the crap out of the car not totally having to worry about the internal bits.....

    So far the box over its 10 year life span has been fine, sure the G box would have been better "I have one in storage" but I am not willing to risk that one at the moment.

    Also people always talk how they want the 160 kit, but there is alot of work in the heads and clearances, you are talking of a rough 1600cc engine with a almost 100 hp power per litre race cam, if it was the real thing, every day driving will be a chore with those webbers, idling etc working all perfectly together..... as you sit in traffic....

    And with my R15 when I first got it on the road, the head had been shaved quite a lot, I have 1605cc pistons by memory, well we had thought that cool this would be fine :-)... so we started it, everything was way cool, sounded great, revs great too, but for one thing, you could switch the engine off and the car continued to run...... it was pre detonating so we got it tested and it was at 11 to 1..... which on avgas was fine and went well and was like that for 8 years.....

    I had to run the car always on av gas on the road or huge amounts of high octane booster..... I blew the head gaskets tons of times and 2 of those times during the GP rally, once I was leading my class and it was the last event on the last day :-(... I can tell you I was mightily pissed....

    How I have detuned the motor with a spacer plate, that was a year ago and I will soon get the car back on the road for a everyday driver until I have my other car restored and on the road.... So it remains to be seen if that helps over a constant driving period..... yes power feels down.

    All I can say is make really sure that the compression is the right level, because higher is not always better, well even more so today with our shittier fuels..... just my opinion

    One other question too, if you want it to rev, try also looking at the flywheel and helping it lose some weight, but not to much, that will be a fine balance as well but I reckon does wonders to the feel on a engine as well.

    Maybe you need to ask people like David from French Connection about how a 160 kit feels or someone similar who has the real thing "not someone who reckons they have" and ask how they feel the car goes with such a kit.

    Just some thoughts
    Volker
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails renault gordini camshafts-160ch_kit.jpg  

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Covert's Avatar
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    This is off a photocopy from Franco-American Imports in the early 80's, it's was sourced out of the renault racing manual for 12/15/17. picture below.

    7701452043 - R12G
    Inlet Valves
    opens BTDC 40 deg
    closes ABDC 72 deg
    Exhaust Valve
    opens BBDC 72 deg
    closes ATDC 40 deg

    7700524884 - 1600cc Racing
    Inlet Valves
    opens BTDC 53 deg
    closes ABDC 83 deg
    Exhaust Valve
    opens BBDC 83 deg
    closes ATDC 53 deg

    Hope this helps
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails renault gordini camshafts-1517compguide.jpg  

  14. #14
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    the car is not really going to be used for competition, just as you say for a bit of fun. i have changed my thought away from the 160 kit, the $1500 piston kit took care of that. my thoughts now are:
    -standard pistons and liners
    -lightened and balanced flywheel
    -balanced crank
    -uprated cam (still pretty wild, but not 160 kit)
    -shaved head
    -44/38mm valves (and spring to suite the cam)
    -twin side draughts
    -exhaust
    -high volume oil pump
    -oil cooler
    -gordini extractors
    -gordini tappet cover (doesn't do anything, i just like them)

    -5 speed box

    the car is also getting new bushes and joints all round and some nice adjustable shocks and reset springs.

    the brakes and sway bars and alot of other mods hav already been done.

    i figure at the current 8.6:1 c/r, a shaved head won't raise the c/r too much. even a 10:1 is acceptable on modern fuels.

    my main aim is to have the car looking, sounding, and to some extent performing* like a gordini (* this is in comparison to most 12's), to those who know what a gordini is, and to those who don't (i.e. police) it's just a little renault 12 with a hole in the exhaust.

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    Fellow Frogger! Reno17's Avatar
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    This is what ya want

    1967 1135 R8 Gordini
    2012 BMW One Series M Coupe

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    The 15TS/17TL pistons have a slightly raised area (about 1mm) in the combustion chamber area and I think they will raise the comp by .4 over 16TS ones. 10 to 1 is achievable with these pistons and some shaving and is not a bad place to start in the Hp race, with the higher comps yielding minimal gains and some headaches above this point.

    One of my engines with standard valves and flat pistons (10 to 1 , 1565cc) was only 4 Hp at the wheels lower than my all out 11.3 to 1, 1605cc, big valve one with the same camgrind and Webers and exhaust.
    '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    '08 Renault Megane sedan

  17. #17
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    yeah my pug 405 with it's 10.4:1 (i think) is a pain enough. i would not want to go that high with this engine.
    i still want increased performance, but not to the detriment of reliability and economy (not too much any way, i realise that statement was not very realistic)

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! Janek's Avatar
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    a few people have mentioned cam regrinds around the 100 dollar mark.

    where! cheapest place i found was 180, and the next was 280- for a mild grind!

  19. #19
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    Strewth thats rude

    Theres a place up here (QLD) called Tighe Cams they did a grind for me for $80 about 18mths ago.

    Just gave them the cam to play with for a couple of days, and it was done.
    1967 1135 R8 Gordini
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  20. #20
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    we got a mild one done for the r12 1.4 motor from wades in melbourne and it only cost $80.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! Janek's Avatar
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    ohmy.... well, can someone provide me an address and number? im heading to noosa next week, via brissie, for a week, so i can drop it off one way, pick it up the other, saving me 100 bucks!

    please, infooooooooo!!

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Ivan Tighe Engineering
    47 Westgate Street
    Wacol 4076
    Ph 07 3271 6001

    There is a website. Search for tighecams. All of the profiles are there. Look for car that has the same engine configuration as yours. Pushrod, OHC, or OHC on buckets. If you have cam followers bring them too.

    For a 16TS look at Ford 1600.
    '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    '08 Renault Megane sedan

  23. #23
    Tadpole
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    Default Dash Bord

    Where can I buy a RENAULT 12 GORDINI dash bord,complete?There is someone who has the dash bourd?


    best regards

  24. #24
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Can someone do a search and find the specs I gave once about my 16TS engine?

    It really worked, and it was all pretty simple stuff... except the pistons. And nothing else was expensive. Better than the original Gordini stuff too, that's why Renault Australia used this gear in their rally cars... the Gordinis... rather than the French gear.

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Ray,
    The cam you mentioned is an A6 Cosworth, which Tighes have the profile for. I don't think it would be a good choice in a comparitively heavy R12 with wide ratios for street use, but I admit I am looking at it for my 750.

    It is 86/54 Ex 54/86 In Advertised. 270 degrees at 50 thou. 435 thou lift. Have a look at the Tighe Cams website and look at the second bottom cam on the Ford 1600 section. There is a lot of useful info there.

    Covert mentioned Head gasket dramas, but over 18 years of playing with 807 motors with lots of compression, I have never had any trouble. I have used standard gaskets, but I do set the liner heights to 8 thou.
    '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    '08 Renault Megane sedan

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