Tips for 504 Gearbox removal & replacement
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Peter J's Avatar
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    Default Tips for 504 Gearbox removal & replacement

    Hi all,

    This weekend I am going to tackle gearbox replacement in the 504. Don't want to get into the remove engine v's moving differential argument as will be replacing engine mounts anyway which discounts that argument.

    I have a new thrust bearing. Need advice on the following:

    Do I apply grease to gearbox to engine and gearbox to drive shaft splines? What sort of grease?

    Any thing I need to now about fitting the thrust bearing, other than what Haynes tells me? Do I need to grease up ball head / release fork pivot?

    Do I use bearing grease to pack up rear bearing of gearbox?

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    I do have good sockets and torque wrench and set of good axle stands etc. with trolley jack to help lift the gearbox in and out. Also have 20 mm support to keep drive shaft in centre of torque tube.

    Any other tips from the experts would be appreciated?

    Peter J.
    PJ

  2. #2
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J
    Hi all,

    This weekend I am going to tackle gearbox replacement in the 504. Don't want to get into the remove engine v's moving differential argument as will be replacing engine mounts anyway which discounts that argument.

    I have a new thrust bearing. Need advice on the following:

    Do I apply grease to gearbox to engine and gearbox to drive shaft splines? What sort of grease?

    Any thing I need to now about fitting the thrust bearing, other than what Haynes tells me? Do I need to grease up ball head / release fork pivot?

    Do I use bearing grease to pack up rear bearing of gearbox?

    I do have good sockets and torque wrench and set of good axle stands etc. with trolley jack to help lift the gearbox in and out. Also have 20 mm support to keep drive shaft in centre of torque tube.

    Any other tips from the experts would be appreciated?

    Peter J.

    engine needn't be removed to do engine mounts but if you are pulling it out it is the best time to check all the wiring around the engine bay and to flush the heater out at the same time and clean as much of the engine bay as possible

    grease the splines for the tailshaft by using a good moly grease or similar

    the rear bearing will be lubricated by oil anyway as far as i know

    while you are at it just check where the box seal runs on the tailshaft to make sure it hasn't cut a groove in the shaft otherwise the oil will leak out and end up in the torque tube and if the front seal in the diff is suspect it will fill the diff up with oil

    it is also a good idea to check the splines at the diff end to make sure they are ok and not badly worn as when they finally go the car won't move

    take your time
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  3. #3
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    Default gearbox stuff

    now, im hardly an expert, infact the complete opposite...lol....

    you will need some high temp. grease on both the input (gearbox to engine) and the torque shafts, theres lots of differant types out there, but just something that can cope with the high temps and ie. not start burning. just some ordinary automotive bearing grease, or shell-brand 'albiada' (i think thats spelt right) will do.

    thrust bearing is easy peasy:-D the haynes manual basically says it all.
    you can grease the ball head as well, same stuff, basically a film of grease to keep water out it and just generally protect all the moving parts.

    sometimes the torque shaft/drive shaft can be a pain to get out of the back of the gear box, basically just gotta jiggle the box up and down and side to side untill the right alignment allows it to slide out.

    and, i know you said that youve got a trolly jack to hold the gearbox, but, seeing as you are taking out the motor as well anyway, then, can i say that i found it easier to leave the gearbox and motor in one piece and take the whole lot out, then muck around with the clutch and everything, and then put it back as one piece.

    and yer a bit of the same grease on the bearing in the back of the gearbox is good too.

    ah well hope that could be of some help.

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Peter J's Avatar
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    Thanks Pugrambo,

    There is a rear seal at end of box but then there appears to be another seal in front of the bearing that supports the tail shaft when it mates into rear of the gearbox. That's what made me ask about greasing that rear bearing as I couldn't see how oil would get to that rear bearing anyway? Will check the tail shaft for that groove.

    How do I tell if the spline into diff is worn? I presume the spline usually has squarish shoulders on each spline. Does worn mean these become rounded and start to glunk upon starting to rotate? Don't have any signs of that but I suppose it will be worthwhile having a look while it's that far apart. Can give the torque tube bearing a grease up as well I suppose.

    I will be taking my time.

    Peter J.
    PJ

  5. #5
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J
    Thanks Pugrambo,

    There is a rear seal at end of box but then there appears to be another seal in front of the bearing that supports the tail shaft when it mates into rear of the gearbox. That's what made me ask about greasing that rear bearing as I couldn't see how oil would get to that rear bearing anyway? Will check the tail shaft for that groove.

    How do I tell if the spline into diff is worn? I presume the spline usually has squarish shoulders on each spline. Does worn mean these become rounded and start to glunk upon starting to rotate? Don't have any signs of that but I suppose it will be worthwhile having a look while it's that far apart. Can give the torque tube bearing a grease up as well I suppose.

    I will be taking my time.

    Peter J.

    just have a look to see which way the seals are in the back of the box

    they are a cup seal so if the seal edge is \ looking from the top of the box then it is to keep crap out and if it is / it is to keep oil in

    you will see what i mean when you are looking at the box

    compare the rear spline with the front one as the front one is nearly always in better condition than the rear

    if they are close to the same then carry on

    if you ever need on then auto cars are the best to get another tailshaft from
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Icon10 Gearbox swap

    This weekend I am going to tackle gearbox replacement in the 504. Don't want to get into the remove engine v's moving differential argument as will be replacing engine mounts anyway which discounts that argument.

    You dont need to remove the engine for the mounts.

    However, unless you have a hoist I would suggest removing the engine!

    Do not leave the gearbox hooked up! I have done gearbox engine thing about five times now. If the propshaft is firm fit in the gearbox you can not get the engine out as the propshaft pulls away from the diff and limits the backward movement nessary get the engine above the rad support panel. Split them and take em out one at a time.

    I have a new thrust bearing. Need advice on the following:

    Do I apply grease to gearbox to engine and gearbox to drive shaft splines? What sort of grease?

    molylebdynum dysulfid! Or however they spell it??

    Any thing I need to now about fitting the thrust bearing, other than what Haynes tells me? Do I need to grease up ball head / release fork pivot?

    Yes u might want to get some loctite 771 it is a high temp grease and galling compound for the ball fork. The fork retainer is a Cu** to replace. But the thrust bearing just screws on. Ohh and you need a set of circlip pliers for the clutch slave cylinder removal. There is a 10 mm hook shape allen key required to get the top bell housing bolts unscrewed.

    Do I use bearing grease to pack up rear bearing of gearbox?
    Nope not if it is a straight swap!

    I do have good sockets and torque wrench and set of good axle stands etc. with trolley jack to help lift the gearbox in and out. Also have 20 mm support to keep drive shaft in centre of torque tube.
    You might wanna have to jacks! And your engine hoist for putting the engine back in.

    Any other tips from the experts would be appreciated?

    Yep, Give us a yell if ya run into dramas. Do everthing you can whilst the engine is out! Ie do sump gaskets, timing chain cover & tensioner (all that stuff can use loctite blue) get your radiator flushed, check or replace clutch and regrind flywheel. You might wanna split the housing of the gearbox and use that loctite blue stuff on ALL surfaces rear housing, bell and the like that will negate any leakage. And you may as well see if you cant sort any leakage around the gearshift lever. Have good look at the bearings for check the syncros as well! replace the exhaust manifold gaskets. Replace any thing that is a pain to get to.

    With the clutch do not by a cheapy!!! they are shit and you will regret not spending the money. Most of what I am suggesting to do will save you a lot of time and aggravation. And replace the gearbox to propshaft seal.

    Ultimatly the time you spend doing the job 100% will reward you!

    All the best AL.

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger!
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    As mentioned earlier the fork can be awkward to fit correctly ie with the retaining spring clip holding the rubber cup against the back of the pivot ball. I've found that all the forks I've changed have a small hole in them (around 5or6mm) which gives you access to the spring clip, if you tack weld a small nut over the hole you can screw a bolt in and jack the clip back which makes the job considerably easier or if you have a suitable sized tap you can run it through the hole, don't overdo it though and permanently distort the spring clip and of course you remove the bolt once the fork is correctly positioned .

    Graham Lewis

  8. #8
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    AlsPug504

    your kidding about the engine/box removal aren't you ?

    all you need to do is maintain the tailshaft stays behind and it's not hard to do just fiddly

    grab at least a 15" shifter and open it up to fit over the shaft and lever the box gently forward from the shaft and it all comes out in one piece

    there is plenty of room to remove the motor and box in one unit and i have done a few more than 5 i reckon (both 504 and 604)
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    Default engine and box removal

    if i can add to pugrambos reply, thats exactly the way i did it too!

    all ya need is what he says, a big shifter on the little shoulder about two inchs back from the end of the shaft. the box and engine (suspended by your hoist) moves forward and off the shaft, then it all comes out quite easily, much easier then one at a time, coz then ya gotta suport the gear box while ya get rid of the engine, then ya gotta hold the gearbox up somehow and get it off the shaft and blaa blaa blaa.

    much easier to take it out in one bit and then ya can stuff around with clutch's/tourqe converters on your bench, or the ground, or at your comfortable working height.

    i did it alone one night to a 504. outside, on a considerable slope, with a trestle and a chain block for a hoist over the engine bay.....lol..very silly, but managed.

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    AlsPug504

    your kidding about the engine/box removal aren't you ?

    No not kidding I ve had the tail shaft jam!

    all you need to do is maintain the tailshaft stays behind and it's not hard to do just fiddly

    grab at least a 15" shifter and open it up to fit over the shaft and lever the box gently forward from the shaft and it all comes out in one piece.


    Sorry? I dont see why that would work? There is no land on which for it to grab restrain the propshaft. Other wise I would have done exatly as you said above.

    there is plenty of room to remove the motor and box in one unit and i have done a few more than 5 i reckon (both 504 and 604)
    Try it with the propshaft still hanging on!!

  11. #11
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsPug504
    Try it with the propshaft still hanging on!!


    been there, done that and it is very simple to get the angle right and lever the shaft back with a shifter

    had one only a short time back with the 604 and yes it may have taken about 20mins of jigging around because the shaft didn't want to part company with the box but it still came out as a complete engine/box unit

    9/10 times the shaft will hang on

    have a beer and get over it
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  12. #12
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsPug504

    Sorry? I dont see why that would work? There is no land on which for it to grab restrain the propshaft. Other wise I would have done exatly as you said above.


    Try it with the propshaft still hanging on!!

    obviously you haven't looked hard enough at the tailshaft when pulling boxes out

    i'll take a pic in daylight tomorrow and enlighten you
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Peter J's Avatar
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    Hi all,

    Completed gearbox exchange late this afternoon. Gearbox and engine back in but will catch up with remainder of job a little later. Got to watch the footy tonight.

    All went well but here are a few observations from a beginner. (I chose to take engine first and then gearbox separate). Nearly gave up when I couldn't get the first radiator hose off! Then nearly gave up trying to undo the exhaust from the manifold however I persisted and eventually got there (WD 40 is amazing stuff). About twelve hours work all up to the stage I'm at now.

    Forgot to empty the gearbox oil first so when removed it oil went everywhere!

    The tail shaft did come with the box and out of the diff but slotted back in OK. There is a small landing in the end of the tailshaft and I figure if you had the peugeot tool/plate that you bolt to the tail shaft face when there is a 20 mm gap between it and box this gadget would slot into that to prevent shaft coming further. The one I had made up from plywood wasn't a close enough fit to prevent this but it did keep the shaft in centre of torque tube.

    I'm feeling like the engine and gearbox together might be the go. It is difficult struggling with the gearbox's weight (even with two jacks) to get it lined up on tail shaft again and then is a pain lining up engine with gearbox shaft. I figure if you kept it together putting it back in would be easier as only need to line up gearbox onto tail shaft with no need to support it's weight. Also is a pain trying to undo and re-do the three bell housing to gearbox bolts while all in the car. How easy would that be out of the vehicle. Might get a chance then to use that great new torque wrench I bought. Look's good in the box but no many places it fits!

    However if you had the car high enough off the ground to do engine gearbox removal together I don't think the hoist I had would lift the motor high enough to get it out of the engine bay. How high off the ground do you need the car to do it that way?

    I had a block and tackle set up up on the end of the hoist which worked well and may work well for engine and gearbox together removal as you could lift with the hoist and have control over slanting the motor with the block and tackle.

    Thanks everybody for the hints. They were a great help. I've never done anything like that before and am feeling pretty good about it. Feel like it makes me a genuine Aussie Frog.

    Peter J.
    PJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J
    Hi all,


    Thanks everybody for the hints. They were a great help. I've never done anything like that before and am feeling pretty good about it. Feel like it makes me a genuine Aussie Frog.

    Peter J.
    A job well done then aye!

    and in reply to trying it with the propshaft still hanging on, well i dont knwo about anyone else but, i cant remember a time when the propshaft DIDNT hang on, but it comes out easy enough with a bit of encouragement.

  15. #15
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Why didn't anyone warn Peter J that it's much, much easier to take the manifold off the head than to take the pipe off the manifold?

    Lots of time and energy wasted there...

  16. #16
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Why didn't anyone warn Peter J that it's much, much easier to take the manifold off the head than to take the pipe off the manifold?

    Lots of time and energy wasted there...


    i have never had any trouble taking the pipe off the manifold

    ues they can be a pain to get to but, with paitience they are able to come off and i woulde rather take a couple of nuts off rather than trying to fight with getting to the manifold bolts to undo them
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  17. #17
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    if it works, dont muck with it.

    better to leave the manifold on the head and not disturb the gasket.

  18. #18
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I've always had less trouble with the manifold gaskets and nuts than the exhaust pipe nuts and gaskets... much less trouble, just seems smart to me to leave well enough alone.

    The manifold/head gaskets can be reused dozens of times... it's rare to pull the other one off in one piece...

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