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  1. #1
    Tadpole nb505's Avatar
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    Default more hp from 505

    G'day, ive got a gr505, looking at getting a bit more power out of it, will extractors, mild cam and carby do the trick with may a bit of head work do the job, any thoughts. Thanks.

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    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Check out my website:

    http://www.geocities.com/davemcbean/...l?997061496590

    Basically for an everyday 2 litre carby 504/505 where tractability and economy is important, this setup works well:

    -big bore 505 exhaust manifold (from 1980 model) or alternatively a normal small bore manifold with twin 1.5" pipes added to just behind the gearbox (just infront of first muffler).

    -Wade 112 camshaft

    -a bit of a clean up behind the valve seats

    -a progressive carby with throat sizes around 32/36, 32/35, 34/34 or 36/36. Where venturis are removeable, the venturi in the first throat shouldn't be anymore than about 0.8 times the diameter of that throat.

    I'm about to try out a Weber 34 ADM from an XF Falcon. These have a nice electric choke and two 34mm throats with a 27mm venturi in the first and a 29mm in the second. Quite a nice size for a performance/economy compromise on a 2 litre engine, although it may take a little while to tailor the jetting, accelerator pump and power valve operation for the 505. The XF version is better than the version fitted to the XE falcon which has a non-conventional idle jet on the first throat which is renowned for giving trouble.

    An electronic ignition and a cold air intake almost always help to make things sweeter.

    Dave
    Last edited by davemcbean; 24th June 2004 at 12:22 PM.
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  3. #3
    Member Platypus's Avatar
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    Dave,got any recommendations for a 2.2 OHC donk?I've seen your website but there doesn't seem to be much on these motors.
    505 STi-The only acceleration is lateral!

  4. #4
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Platypus
    Dave,got any recommendations for a 2.2 OHC donk?I've seen your website but there doesn't seem to be much on these motors.
    That's basically because:

    a) I haven't modified these myself
    b) I haven't been able to get any info from anyone else who might have.

    The port design on the OHC engine is both better and more conventional than the older engines and so most mods which apply to Japanese engines of a similar design, should apply to them also.

    I think the R21 12 valve head would be a great conversion. Pity there were no 12V R21s ever sold in Australia.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  5. #5
    Tadpole nb505's Avatar
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    thanks for your help dave, you wouldn't know how many hours labour to do the work?

  6. #6
    nJm
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    What's the best stuff to use to make a cold air intake? I guess just buy some form of flexible pipe and stick it onto the end of the air filter and run it down to that hole in the side of the radiator mount (near RHS headlight).


    It is a pity we can't buy webbers already modded for 505's. I don't have the time to fiddle with one, I really need something I can just bolt on in an afternoon. For that reason I have been thinking about buying a rebuilt Solex from Pugwreck.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  7. #7
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    nJm... a Weber from a 2-litre Chrysler Centura or a Renault 16TS are near enough to right to just bolt on...

    They bolt onto the same bolt pattern on the manifold, they have the same air cleaner fitting at the top and apparently their jetting is near enough to right to just throw them in and leave them alone.

  8. #8
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    try this out that i put in this thread baout cold air induction on a 505

    LRP, where to now?
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nJm
    What's the best stuff to use to make a cold air intake? I guess just buy some form of flexible pipe and stick it onto the end of the air filter and run it down to that hole in the side of the radiator mount (near RHS headlight).


    It is a pity we can't buy webbers already modded for 505's. I don't have the time to fiddle with one, I really need something I can just bolt on in an afternoon. For that reason I have been thinking about buying a rebuilt Solex from Pugwreck.
    njm....and Dave,
    I spoke to a carb guy here in brisbane last week. He suggested a 180cfm remanufactured Holley. Apparently they are almost identical to the 32/36 weber, but have the advantage of electric choke and he also said they activate opposite to webers so are right for the Pug.
    Dave/Ray..what are the zenith carbs like? I have the original from the 4 port head and I have found from a search that BMW and Merc used 2 of them in the 70's/80's on their 6 cyl engines.
    Thanks
    Chris
    Last edited by HONG KONG PUGGY; 24th June 2004 at 07:22 PM. Reason: someone changed all the keys...my spelling haha

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY
    njm....and Dave,
    I spoke to a carb guy here in brisbane last week. He suggested a 180cfm remanufactured Holley. Apparently they are almost identical to the 32/36 weber, but have the advantage of electric choke and he also said they activate opposite to webers so are right for the Pug.
    Dave/Ray..what are the zenith carbs like? I have the original from the 4 port head and I have found from a search that BMW and Merc used 2 of them in the 70's/80's on their 6 cyl engines.
    Thanks
    Chris
    I had a Zenith on a Malaysian import 504, it wasn't very good, had a vacumn operated secondary.
    The standard early Solex went a lot better.

    Graham Wallis

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    I had a Zenith on a Malaysian import 504, it wasn't very good, had a vacumn operated secondary.
    The standard early Solex went a lot better.

    Graham Wallis
    Thanks Graham,
    That was the sort of answer I was after. The Solex thats on the current engine in the car is woeful....
    At the moment, the car is lovely but fuel consumption is woeful. Big job this weekend
    Cheers
    Chris
    Last edited by HONG KONG PUGGY; 25th June 2004 at 10:47 AM.

  12. #12
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY
    I spoke to a carb guy here in brisbane last week. He suggested a 180cfm remanufactured Holley. Apparently they are almost identical to the 32/36 weber, but have the advantage of electric choke and he also said they activate opposite to webers so are right for the Pug.
    Yes, that's right. They are a copy of the Weber 32/36 DFAV which is fitted to the Chrysler Centura and american Ford Pinto (which also comes with the Holley and Motorcraft copies). The throats operate the same as the DFAV, but opposite to the DGAV (the one fitted to Cortinas and Escorts).

    If you can get one of these Holley 180 (Weber DFAV) carbies, then do so, because the top of the carby matches up easily to the Pug aircleaner. The throat order only matters on the 3 round port head fitted to 504s. It doesn't matter on square port or 4 branch heads fitted to 505s and later 504s.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  13. #13
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nb505
    thanks for your help dave, you wouldn't know how many hours labour to do the work?
    Hard to say, but it would be quite a few. I don't think that it's economical to do unless you can do most of it yourself or get someone to help you. The same applies to modifications to any car.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davemcbean
    Yes, that's right. They are a copy of the Weber 32/36 DFAV which is fitted to the Chrysler Centura and american Ford Pinto (which also comes with the Holley and Motorcraft copies). The throats operate the same as the DFAV, but opposite to the DGAV (the one fitted to Cortinas and Escorts).

    If you can get one of these Holley 180 (Weber DFAV) carbies, then do so, because the top of the carby matches up easily to the Pug aircleaner. The throat order only matters on the 3 round port head fitted to 504s. It doesn't matter on square port or 4 branch heads fitted to 505s and later 504s.

    Dave
    Thanks Dave,
    That helps alot. I will look for a 32/36 dfav (did the come with elec choke?) Quoted 270 plus gst for reman 180 today. Is the Holley 5200 the same carbie?
    I also spoke in length to a carb expert here in Bris today and was told that one should retain the cars original carb at almost all cost. In this case, no more than $300 to rebuild and tune the Pug with the Solex. I'd be happy if the Solex wasn't a tempramental piece of *^#@ (personal opinion) I have in the past not been game to change much on our Pugs, because if they stop I get a" What the did ytou do to MY car" mobile call. But lately, after the head change and water pump change and retuning and setting the auto I am a little more confident or brassy may-be
    I know of a Zenith carb going cheap...anyone want one?
    Looking for a 32/36 this weekend. Will try the Chrysler wreckers ....
    The next quandry is to rebuild the old pushrod engine with a cam/carb set-up more suited to the auto's rev range. What displacement are the old 504ti engines? I know of one for sale, this is always a possibility.
    How easy is the switch from ohv to ohc engine? The possibilities are only limited by imagination I suppose, and $$$ which I haven't found a tree for yet.
    Chris.
    P.S Dave, If the throat order doesn't matter, would the weber 32/36 dgav series be OK then ??
    Last edited by HONG KONG PUGGY; 25th June 2004 at 06:09 PM. Reason: More info

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY
    Thanks Dave,
    That helps alot. I will look for a 32/36 dfav (did the come with elec choke?) Quoted 270 plus gst for reman 180 today. Is the Holley 5200 the same carbie?
    I also spoke in length to a carb expert here in Bris today and was told that one should retain the cars original carb at almost all cost. In this case, no more than $300 to rebuild and tune the Pug with the Solex. I'd be happy if the Solex wasn't a tempramental piece of *^#@ (personal opinion) I have in the past not been game to change much on our Pugs, because if they stop I get a" What the did ytou do to MY car" mobile call. But lately, after the head change and water pump change and retuning and setting the auto I am a little more confident or brassy may-be
    I know of a Zenith carb going cheap...anyone want one?
    Looking for a 32/36 this weekend. Will try the Chrysler wreckers ....
    The next quandry is to rebuild the old pushrod engine with a cam/carb set-up more suited to the auto's rev range. What displacement are the old 504ti engines? I know of one for sale, this is always a possibility.
    How easy is the switch from ohv to ohc engine? The possibilities are only limited by imagination I suppose, and $$$ which I haven't found a tree for yet.
    Chris.
    P.S Dave, If the throat order doesn't matter, would the weber 32/36 dgav series be OK then ??


    The 504 Ti engine is the same as the 505 push rod engine. The head and injection gear bolt straight on.
    I believe you have the 4 port head already, so as long as the cut outs for the injectors are present, (I am almost certain that they are) you could leave the engine intact and bolt on the injection.
    TIs will give a much more satisfactory driving experience as long as they are running well. They do vary though, and can sometimes give poor economy for no discernable reason. They are very reliable, however.
    You will need to fit the fuel supply system including the return line to the tank etc.
    It is probably worth a try, the parts won't cost a lot and you can always convert to EFI if not satisfied!

    Graham Wallis

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    The 504 Ti engine is the same as the 505 push rod engine. The head and injection gear bolt straight on.
    I believe you have the 4 port head already, so as long as the cut outs for the injectors are present, (I am almost certain that they are) you could leave the engine intact and bolt on the injection.
    TIs will give a much more satisfactory driving experience as long as they are running well. They do vary though, and can sometimes give poor economy for no discernable reason. They are very reliable, however.
    You will need to fit the fuel supply system including the return line to the tank etc.
    It is probably worth a try, the parts won't cost a lot and you can always convert to EFI if not satisfied!

    Graham Wallis

    Woohoo......
    Aussiefrogs rulz...
    Ask the rigtht questions, get the right answers. And then some. I was only thinking about the addition of EFI to the 504ti engine the other day. Yes I do have the 4 port head already, engine out of car though apparantly it dropped a piston skirt. I have to pull it apart and investigate. But that is good news about the ti injection bolting on. I am going to look into a good fei system too. The car doesn't need to be a rocket ship, just nice to drive and have some sort of reasonable economy. I am sure this is acheivable, anything has to be an improvement. [OPEC have us on their 10 most wanted list at the moment, we are running 2 x 505 wagons]
    Thank-you Graham,
    Cheers Chris
    Last edited by HONG KONG PUGGY; 25th June 2004 at 08:00 PM.

  17. #17
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY
    P.S Dave, If the throat order doesn't matter, would the weber 32/36 dgav series be OK then ??
    Yes, but I think the Holley 180/DFAV is the better option because it fits up neat to the aircleaner and the throats ar closer together (you usually need to file the manifold a bit to fit the DGAV version). Also the electric chokes seem to be more reliable and are nicer under the bonnet than the horrible water operated chokes. Both the Weber DGAV and DFAV have the water operated kind, although I think you can buy the electric attachment from weber dealers.

    If you can get a remanufactured Holley, with an electric choke already fitted then go for that.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    32/36 webers can be found on www.ebay.com.au every day of the week. Also fairly easy to find at www.autotrader.com.au

    Cheers,

    Dave


  19. #19
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    ok

    time to throw a spanner in the works

    i have a 40/40DFAV weber on the 604 at present

    it is synchronious and has electric choke

    throttle linkage at the rear and fuel bowl at the front
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    ok

    time to throw a spanner in the works

    i have a 40/40DFAV weber on the 604 at present

    it is synchronious and has electric choke

    throttle linkage at the rear and fuel bowl at the front
    Hey Pugrambo
    Think I have hijacked this thread, fresh voices always welcome. The 40/40 would be good, but wouldn't it pose the same problems a 34adm would in that it's jetted for a v6.
    I'll make some calls tomorrowand see how I go.

  21. #21
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    jets are easily changed to suit different engines

    this particular one is pretty much already spoken for when i finish off the new injected PRV V6 for the 604

    hmmm will have to work out a new water injection setup when i do that
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    jets are easily changed to suit different engines

    this particular one is pretty much already spoken for when i finish off the new injected PRV V6 for the 604

    hmmm will have to work out a new water injection setup when i do that
    I am glad you had some luck with the water injection, hasn't worked no matter how i set it up on my car.

    Dave


  23. #23
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave
    I am glad you had some luck with the water injection, hasn't worked no matter how i set it up on my car.

    Dave

    yeah

    the way i saw it was that the vacuum isn't there at idle otherwise the vacuum advance on the dissy would be on max at idle when the car really only needs or runs on the static timing at that point

    more vacuum is created with revs and thus the vacuum advance comes into action to advance the timing + the mechanical advance as well

    i stuck the needle in the rubber line so that around 1/4" of the needle actually came out of the end of it to which i fed that into the post in the carb and the hose over the fitting as per normal and away she went

    maybe with the cam you have in the car you are lacking the vacuum

    i know in the PRV V6 i did for my old 504 i had to get the dissy modified to suit as there wasn't enough vacuum to operate a vacuum advance on the dissy so it was removed and the guts of the dissy was altered
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    The problem isn't with lack of vacuum, there is too much vacuum in the lines for me to use them. It sucks like a garden hose even at idle if i use a vacuum line.


    Dave

    P.s Using a pressure guage on my vac lines there is a bit of vacuum at idle and it increases with revs, but if you give it full throttle you can see the needle drop for a moment. I'm sure with this setup under load and full throttle the flow would drop to nothing. This set up will be good at cruise and gentle acceleration however.


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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave
    The problem isn't with lack of vacuum, there is too much vacuum in the lines for me to use them. It sucks like a garden hose even at idle if i use a vacuum line.


    Dave

    P.s Using a pressure guage on my vac lines there is a bit of vacuum at idle and it increases with revs, but if you give it full throttle you can see the needle drop for a moment. I'm sure with this setup under load and full throttle the flow would drop to nothing. This set up will be good at cruise and gentle acceleration however.

    i can see my water flow slow a little under boot full in the drive but it soon returns back to a good flow pretty much instantly when the revs catch up

    you may need a smaller needle maybe

    i am thinking of playing with a size up from what is in there but i'll do the timing first to see how far it can go on the current needle in the line

    even at 1500rpm i still have a flow but it drops to nothing at idle

    if i slowly increase the revs the flow increases with them

    the only thing i have to watch for is maybe a little dirt blocking the line but i have a filter on the end of the pick up to hopefully prevent that

    have you had a look at that site that was linked in the other thread ?
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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