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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! geodon's Avatar
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    Default Workshops/sheds

    My existing workshop would make an ideal room for wine making & storage. It's solid brick, insulated, hot & cold water etc.

    But, I have to wait 3 years for my 1st crop so there's no rush.


    So, I'm considering a new workshop/shed 6 metres deep by 10 wide with 2 double rolladoors on the 10m side. And, FINALLY, after doing this resto stuff for 4-5 decades I can have a hoist to assist my dodgy back.


    I'd love to hear from fellow punters re what features they find really helpful that I can plagiarise.

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    e.g. I have spanners & sockets wall mounted above the workbench & other tools in drawers fixed under the bench. The amount of time I waste going back & forth is ridiculous. So I'll switch to tool trolleys. They can be wheeled to where the action is. The cost will be offset by reduced shelving, cupboards etc. and they can be sold off by my kids when I get old & decrepit

    Tin sheds tend to be hotboxes even with a 4 metre height. Does anyone have any insulation success stories? One local here had his tin walls sprayed on the inside with that sticky polystyrene sort of stuff. It seems to work well.
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    Put some transparent sheets into the roofing - it will make a world of difference to the light
    Fit some industrial vents at the ridge that can be opened from below.
    Fully insulate the roof - support mesh and a foil backed blanket.
    Suspend some power outlets from the roof at a reachable height near the car, but not above the hoist.
    Have a cleaners sink with drainage for washing stuff.

    Sprayed insulation is a pain. If you can afford it use metal clad t&g refrigeration panels the full wall height, and they also improve the light. They won't support shelving though.

    Steel trowel the floor slab and spray immediately with chlorinated rubber if you aren't doing any other finish. It cures the slab helping surface hardness, and makes oil spillage easily cleaned.
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    COL
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    Not sure what the budget is for this project but judging by the size of the shed I would say about 20K

    Mezzanine floor above the benches so that you can store items such as body panels and other things seldom used, also makes a great place to put lights over benches.

    Air lines with outlets at convenient places.

    I would paint the floor, first with a primer and then with paving paint.

    White walls and ceilings to reflect light.

    Plenty of storage, shelves, draws etc.

    Set up a dedicated welding area.

    A clean room for assembly work.
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    Maybe too expensive, but I've always thought a tin shed should ideally have a second layer of tin on the roof with an air gap, like a roof on a roof.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    Maybe too expensive, but I've always thought a tin shed should ideally have a second layer of tin on the roof with an air gap, like a roof on a roof.
    Not sure if relevant, but my last house had a metal roof, with fiberglass insulation (came on roll and had silver paper on one side) which was installed in between the roof sheets and the batons. The attic space never got hot even during Brisbane summers. The insulation also made it a quiet roof during rain.
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    Re: Stu's comment on a double layer roof (I forgot to quote)

    Dead right! The air gap makes it impossible for radiant heat to get thru.

    The most innovative I've come across is a layer of solar panels that powers a bank of used 12V radiator fans to expel hot air.

    Sheer genius!

    This needs more research
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I've always had my eye on one of these .... They alway seem to be about $20k

    https://www.bestsheds.com.au/shed-range/american-barns/



    I like the idea of the 21 x 12 meter barn as it gives you 4meter bays between the uprights. So you have enough height for hoists and caravans down the middle and I'd fit six doors. The middle 10metres can be storage and you can store 6 vehicles behind doors for easy access/use.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    For roof insulation, wire support mesh, then a foil backed blanket over the purlins and tight under the sheeting is standard construction practice, and will probably be supplied by the shed fabricator. Otherwise it will be in stock at the local builders' supplier. It is effective.

    Second roofing shade as mentioned has been around since colonial times in various forms, but usually fails, which is why the custom has stopped. The problem is that the gap gets filled with leaves and debris, and the fixing holes rust out. The better alternative is to stretch a shade cloth awning over the roof, from the ridge to vertical supports near the eaves, arranged to make it removable. It is still a cleaning pain, and the insulated roofing is usually
    sufficient.

    Chlorinated rubber curing compounds will keep your concrete at optimum hardness. It's what makes tyres squeal in carparks. Paving paint is often chlorinated rubber based also, but is applied as a finish. These cheap compounds are not appropriate under some workshop finishes, like epoxies.

    Hot air will remove itself quite well with just a roof vent or vents. It is replaced by ambient air through the door, which may sometimes be worse. A shuttable vent will help, otherwise shut the door.

    The American barns pictured cost more for their quaint appearance and have a 4 part roof, needing flashing. A simple gable is better.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    For roof insulation, wire support mesh, then a foil backed blanket over the purlins and tight under the sheeting is standard construction practice, and will probably be supplied by the shed fabricator. Otherwise it will be in stock at the local builders' supplier. It is effective.

    Second roofing shade as mentioned has been around since colonial times in various forms, but usually fails, which is why the custom has stopped. The problem is that the gap gets filled with leaves and debris, and the fixing holes rust out. The better alternative is to stretch a shade cloth awning over the roof, from the ridge to vertical supports near the eaves, arranged to make it removable. It is still a cleaning pain, and the insulated roofing is usually
    sufficient.

    Chlorinated rubber curing compounds will keep your concrete at optimum hardness. It's what makes tyres squeal in carparks. Paving paint is often chlorinated rubber based also, but is applied as a finish. These cheap compounds are not appropriate under some workshop finishes, like epoxies.

    Hot air will remove itself quite well with just a roof vent or vents. It is replaced by ambient air through the door, which may sometimes be worse. A shuttable vent will help, otherwise shut the door.

    The American barns pictured cost more for their quaint appearance and have a 4 part roof, needing flashing. A simple gable is better.
    Those american barns also seem really cheap for the size (it because they have uprights in the middle). What other 21 x 12 shed can you get for $20k I think the uprights in the shed would be more of an issue than the flashing etc

    What about 2 shipping containers with a roof between them ( I want a decent shed with a good floor myself), but those container sheds see to provide good height and very secure storage.
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    If you really must have internal poles (columns) , and I would assume they are a nuisance with a hoist in the high area, you can get a simpler profile bell roof wide shed in that size. The portal frames for these roofs are usually cold rolled and aren't in the cost area of fabricated structural hot rolled steel. .

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    for shed cooling. my brother inlaw used to put a sprinkler on his shed roof when they lived in Mildura. This is probably more effective than most insulations. It will not keep you warm in winter though You could line and insulate it like you do a house ....
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    for shed cooling. my brother inlaw used to put a sprinkler on his shed roof when they lived in Mildura. This is probably more effective than most insulations. It will not keep you warm in winter though You could line and insulate it like you do a house ....
    Shane, I'll be doing this as it's so easy & cheap to do.

    Plus the new shed will drain into rainwater tanks that supply our veg garden so the only water I'll "use" is via evaporation

    This, a few vents plus insulation as above during construction should solve the problem
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post

    What about 2 shipping containers with a roof between them ( I want a decent shed with a good floor myself), but those container sheds see to provide good height and very secure storage.
    This might be much cheaper option. Includes the roof and end wall. I assume it would not be difficult to wall the near end as well if need be. :- https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotD...54&lid=2087048

    Attached Images Attached Images
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    In my first and probably only new shed, I insulated the walls and roof, and lined the walls with villaboard. Painted the walls an off white for light reflection and painted the floors with a pale yellow epoxy. Definitely paint the floor before you move anything in. My shed is 15 x 7M with a toilet and shower room at one end, along with a workshop area. My wife jokingly calls it the Shed Mahal, and tells everyone it is bigger than the house, it's not, but it is close.

    The council kept asking, "Are you putting in a kitchen?" No, why would I put a kitchen in my shed? "Well you already have a toilet and shower." Eventually I convinced a town planner that I wasn't going to have 10 Asian Students living in my shed, and wasn't going to have a business working on vehicles. "So why do you need such a big shed?" It's not a big shed. I said I have a lot of cars and motorbikes. "How many." At the time it was 8 cars and 10 motorbikes. "Any of them registered." Yes, 7 cars and 4 motorbikes. "What are they and what are the rego numbers?" I told them and they said they would get back to me like they had said half a dozen times before, but never did. Next day, I get a call, " Mr Moore we can see why you need such a big shed, your building is approved." The approval had taken 18 months. It then took Titan Garages another 18 months to get it erected. It is a very long story I won't go into.

    Went a bit mad with the lights (at a time when LEDs were still way too expensive) having 18 double 4 foot fluros, but have 11.8 Kw of solar panels with two 5 Kw, 3 phase inverters to compensate. I have 3 phase on the shed, and although I am an electrician I haven't got around to putting any 3 phase outlets in yet for some gear I already have. I have 14 double GPOs and one 15A outlet. Can never have too many power points.
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    That isn't a shed. It's a full grown vehicle service workshop!

    Only 10 students? You must admit that sort of thing in a residential area attracts planners' suspicions.

    I wish I had it.

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    Its interesting, in my "rural living" area, that shed would be considered about average size 15 x 7 would be an average sized shed. I want to get a 21 x 12 ... only the fact I haven't won tatts stops me
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    Maybe too expensive, but I've always thought a tin shed should ideally have a second layer of tin on the roof with an air gap, like a roof on a roof.
    Aha, a large scale Land-Rover tropical roof.
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    I wish I'd painted our garage floor....

    My suggestions are:

    1. Twice as many power points as you think you could possibly need. And then a few more.
    2. A small table (mine is 400 mm square by 700 mm high) on castors and with a lower shelf of the
    same size as the top. I use this by wheeling it from job to job to give a surface onto which to put
    tools and bits and pieces removed from the car(s) when working on them. Should have made it years
    earlier!
    3. Good strip lighting on walls behind work benches - the LEDs that replace fluoro tubes are fantastic.
    4. The widest roller door money can buy, powered
    5. Another roller door on the other side if you want to move things through the shed
    6. A floor layout that allows dust, leaves etc to be blown out as easily as possible through those roller doors.
    7. A separate side door for access without opening the roller door.
    8. As Shane said, make it bigger if you can. I doubt the cost increases in direct proportion to the size.
    9. Consider increasing the floor thickness a bit from what seems adequate.

    Strongly support suggested roof light panels and good insulation.

    We look forward to photographs!

    Cheers
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    Mine is rammed earth. 9 x 10 m car space/workshop, 6 x 10 m kitchen / workshop/ shower/ toilet/library ( no room in house for my books )

    Rammed earth is wonderful - even in 42C garage is tolerable and back workshop is cool ( if I keep door closed ) . This makes it MUCH more pleasant being in garage for 4 months of year, so one can get more done ( SWMBO permitting - garden duty calls )

    Helped also by high gable roof, although downside of this is swallows crapping all over cars and machinery ( electronic doohickey being planned to keep the little ****ers out, although I do feel guilty as they are very territorial)

    Would thoroughly endorse any design/insulation tricks that would make temperature tolerable throughout year ( I got lucky as previous owner had already built in rammed earth, so my solution unlikely to work for all ). The traditional tin shed becomes unbearable in Aussie summer and affects concentration/error rate ( mine already high enough)

    One caveat about the transparent panels in roof to assist lighting ( excellent idea ) In our previous garage I did this and it worked well BUT we are rose nuts /garden types so therefore had roses planted adjacent to garage ( climbing up the outside wall - looked good ). The rose thought that this was a truly excellent idea, as it allowed it to grow both outside and inside the garage. This took some time and effort to correct ( festooned through wire wheels in the attic ). DON't plant anything to grow over the garage if you go this way.

    A hoist is a major boon if you can stretch to it. I got a two poster second-hand from a lift/hoist company in Dandenong who'd recycled it from a car dealership. $1700.00 fitted I am not sure whether I just got lucky or whether they have them all the time. They were good to deal with.

    If going the hoist/heavy machinery/compressor route 3 phase is worth it.

    A secondary area out the back ( with kitchen etc ) also functions as a space in which one can sit and work on small projects in comfort and with good light and magnification. It is also good as a space with computer for last minute internet orders/searches

    Good luck with the project

    Andrew
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    Has anyone used or has experience with this panel, looks promising and the outside skin can be ordered in to include durable exterior side and probably easy mount up to slide into channel, probably too expensive but then you keep slipping in panels and add space, cool in summer and warm in winter, plus noise insulation. Do it once and do it right?

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    Another point with translucent roof panels - check the heat transmission specifications, I think it is the "white" ones which let a lot of heat through, some of the cream ones are OK, and the darker ones reduce the heat transmission. Strike a balance. Probably need only one sheet in every 4 or 5 or it will get too hot. I only have 2 on the South side on my shed. Standing under some panels at a display centre is enough to feel the difference.

    When I had my 9m x 6m shed floor concreted some 20 years ago, my concreter recommended 75mm reinforced instead of the standard 100mm un-reinforced (approx same strength). Reason mainly to avoid the grooves they put in to avoid cracking, as the reinforced won't crack, and I have a very smooth, almost shiny, surface with no grooves, very easy to clean. I did coat it with 2 or 3 coats of Bondcrete at the time before using the shed, but have noted that some spills attack the Bondcrete a little. The extra cost of the reinforced floor has been worth it to me. Maybe that is standard these days?

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    You would be unlikely to get approval for an unreinforced floor, and the need for code reinforcement cover put an end to those skinny slabs. Even a reinforced floor is subject to shrinkage cracking, and a large slab should consider this.

    The council may require a slab design drawing, in which case the building codes would be followed.

    Bondcrete is primarily a PVA adhesive and there are better solutions - chlorinated rubber, which includes paving paints, or epoxy which is more expensive but harder wearing if needed, which is unlikely. Steel trowelling gives a polish to the slab. Some of the expensive finishes may require more preparation.

    You don't need much rooflighting for a lot of internal effect, Sheet colour makes little transmission difference when measured. The problem comes from the lack of insulation under the translucent sheet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    In my first and probably only new shed, I insulated the walls and roof, and lined the walls with villaboard. Painted the walls an off white for light reflection and painted the floors with a pale yellow epoxy. Definitely paint the floor before you move anything in. My shed is 15 x 7M with a toilet and shower room at one end, along with a workshop area. My wife jokingly calls it the Shed Mahal, and tells everyone it is bigger than the house, it's not, but it is close.

    The council kept asking, "Are you putting in a kitchen?" No, why would I put a kitchen in my shed? "Well you already have a toilet and shower." Eventually I convinced a town planner that I wasn't going to have 10 Asian Students living in my shed, and wasn't going to have a business working on vehicles. "So why do you need such a big shed?" It's not a big shed. I said I have a lot of cars and motorbikes. "How many." At the time it was 8 cars and 10 motorbikes. "Any of them registered." Yes, 7 cars and 4 motorbikes. "What are they and what are the rego numbers?" I told them and they said they would get back to me like they had said half a dozen times before, but never did. Next day, I get a call, " Mr Moore we can see why you need such a big shed, your building is approved." The approval had taken 18 months. It then took Titan Garages another 18 months to get it erected. It is a very long story I won't go into.

    Went a bit mad with the lights (at a time when LEDs were still way too expensive) having 18 double 4 foot fluros, but have 11.8 Kw of solar panels with two 5 Kw, 3 phase inverters to compensate. I have 3 phase on the shed, and although I am an electrician I haven't got around to putting any 3 phase outlets in yet for some gear I already have. I have 14 double GPOs and one 15A outlet. Can never have too many power points.
    Strewth! I never thought about the Dead Hand of Bureaucracy!


    I'm on 6 acres and already have a stable block & some shedding.


    I'd better get cracking. That 3 year window till my 1st crop just got smaller.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    I wish I'd painted our garage floor....

    My suggestions are:

    1. Twice as many power points as you think you could possibly need. And then a few more.
    2. A small table (mine is 400 mm square by 700 mm high) on castors and with a lower shelf of the
    same size as the top. I use this by wheeling it from job to job to give a surface onto which to put
    tools and bits and pieces removed from the car(s) when working on them. Should have made it years
    earlier!
    3. Good strip lighting on walls behind work benches - the LEDs that replace fluoro tubes are fantastic.
    4. The widest roller door money can buy, powered
    5. Another roller door on the other side if you want to move things through the shed
    6. A floor layout that allows dust, leaves etc to be blown out as easily as possible through those roller doors.
    7. A separate side door for access without opening the roller door.
    8. As Shane said, make it bigger if you can. I doubt the cost increases in direct proportion to the size.
    9. Consider increasing the floor thickness a bit from what seems adequate.

    Strongly support suggested roof light panels and good insulation.

    We look forward to photographs!

    Cheers
    10. Viewing chair (s)
    11. Tea making capability
    12. Sleeping accommodation
    13. Ensuite

  25. #25
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Strewth again. 11.8 kW is quite some capacity.

    Viewing chair is a good idea. Not sure about bedroom - I've seen it done though.
    JohnW

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