Project Grover
  • Register
  • Help
Results 1 to 17 of 17
Like Tree7Likes
  • 3 Post By Demannu
  • 1 Post By bluey504
  • 1 Post By Dano
  • 1 Post By Demannu
  • 1 Post By DoubleChevron

Thread: Project Grover

  1. #1
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    2,537

    Default Project Grover

    So, I know this is a french car forum, but bear with me, it gets gallic!

    'Grover' is a 1999 P38 Range Rover HSE. He has a 4.6 litre V8 engine, ZF 4HP24 automatic transmission, adjustable computer-controlled air suspension, 4 wheel traction control, and many other goodies.

    He drives like a car, not a truck like a Land Cruiser or Patrol. Very comfortable in the outback or the urban jungle.

    I love Grover. As a tow car or off-roader, he suits me perfectly. However.......

    Grover is thirsty. Very thirsty. The 100 litre petrol tank (and he needs 95, runs terribly on 91) is good for about 500km. He has a sequential vapour-phase injection LPG system fitted, with an 80 litre usable gas tank that is good for about 350km. This equates to about 20L/100km on petrol, 23L/100km on LPG.

    My dream is to eventually take Grover around the block, and explore the deep depths of the Australian outback. However a maximum range of 850km assuming both fuels are available, is not an effective or economical proposition.

    So, a plan is evolving! It's time for another diesel conversion!

    Advertisement


    Diesels into P38s is not an unusual conversion. There are a number getting around in Australia with Land Rover 200/300TDi or TD5 engines. Isuzu 4BD1-T engines are a straightforward fit. There's at least one with a Cummins 4BT. Indeed, the P38 was available in international markets with a 2.5 litre BMW inline 6 diesel.

    But being a Peugeot fan, none of them was going to do.

    I have always been a fan of the PSA DW series engines. Bulletproof, torquey, economical, compact. I've driven them in 306, 406, 307, 308, C5, 3008, 508 etc, and they're all good.

    When a cheap 406 HDi came up, things started falling into place.

    The plan is to fit the DW10ATED (RHZ) engine from a late model 406 HDi 110 into Grover. I will adapt a bellhousing to fit the original transmission, and make brackets to use the original Range Rover rubber mounts.

    Mentioning this amongst the Land Rover fraternity has really divided opinion! Most of them suggest using the tried and tested engine combinations, but none of them are cheap and to my mind they are all inferior to the PSA product. So I thought I'd pop over here and see what the Peugeot peeps think.

    Some specs:
    Rover V8 | Peugeot RHZ
    Cylinders 8 | 4
    Displacement 4552cc | 1997cc
    Power 222hp (less on LPG) | 110hp, 150 after remap
    Torque 407Nm (less on LPG) | 250Nm, 360 after remap
    Max torque RPM 2600 | 1750

    Progress sofar:
    - Lots of measuring.
    - Engine removed from 406.
    - Started construction of bellhousing adapter.
    - Intense study of electrical systems on both donor and recipient vehicles.

    I think it will work well. The torque characteristics of the diesel should mean in typical driving conditions, it should be more or less as 'perky' as the V8, and the power difference would only be apparent if you really open the taps!

    I'm sure it won't be straightforward. But that's half the fun
    Dano, pug407 and CEyssens like this.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts CEyssens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Berwick VIC AUS
    Posts
    1,050

    Default

    The DW10 engine is a nice unit, I think a little low on torque for your Range Rover but still capable, I have one in my Ford Mondeo and it has excellent pulling capabilities, only limited by the chassis.
    Based on the size and type of vehicle you probably should consider the diesel engines from the Landrover discovery or even a Ford Territory. These are engines from the joint venture between Ford and PSA, V6 turbo diesel engines, basically designed for your vehicle size/type and will still tickle your French engine desire.
    This engine is used in a wide range of vehicles including LR, RR, Citroen, Peugeot, Ford, Jaguar and even a V8 version used in a Range Rover Sport check out this wiki link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AJD-V6/PSA_DT17

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dandenong Vic
    Posts
    1,254

    Default

    The 407/Territory V6 twin turbo engine is probs the go to..use the six speed auto as the Terri has it 1: fitted as standard and 2: has the transfer case set up. Demannu it may be easier to adapt the drive line than the engine.
    Brendan.
    Dano likes this.

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    8,767

    Default

    These engines' torque and power curves are all different. What about the transmission ratios and programming? It might prove to be better to fit a complete engine/transmission combo. I'll leave you to sort the diff ratio and tyre size.

    You can certainly make long trips without a long range tank. I did years ago, when fuel outlets were much fewer, with a thirsty 2.25 L diesel Landie with only one standard tank. It was under the driver's seat. The passenger's seat housed a couple of 6V tractor batteries, also standard. A Jerry can came along for the ride.
    Last edited by seasink; 30th August 2019 at 08:24 PM.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Dano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    1,130

    Default

    Scotty,

    Knowing your previous undertakings, I am sure you have/will come up with a more than viable solution.

    Cheers

    Dano
    Demannu likes this.

  6. #6
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    2,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CEyssens View Post
    The DW10 engine is a nice unit, I think a little low on torque for your Range Rover but still capable, I have one in my Ford Mondeo and it has excellent pulling capabilities, only limited by the chassis.
    Based on the size and type of vehicle you probably should consider the diesel engines from the Landrover discovery or even a Ford Territory. These are engines from the joint venture between Ford and PSA, V6 turbo diesel engines, basically designed for your vehicle size/type and will still tickle your French engine desire.
    This engine is used in a wide range of vehicles including LR, RR, Citroen, Peugeot, Ford, Jaguar and even a V8 version used in a Range Rover Sport check out this wiki link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AJD-V6/PSA_DT17
    I've had a lot of people tell me that the 2 litre won't have enough torque for the P38. And yet it makes more torque, starting from lower RPM than the 4.0 litre V8 and the 2.5 litre BMW turbo diesel engine that was available in the P38. So I don't think that is a valid argument.

    The V6 engine would be nice, but requires more work than I am willing to do at this point. It has been done, but it requires chassis modification and custom exhaust manifolds and turbo setups as the RH turbo will try to be in the same place as the steering box. And PSA dropped the V6 in favour of their 4 cylinders as the DW12 was making more power and torque a lot more cheaply.
    CEyssens likes this.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  7. #7
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    2,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bluey504 View Post
    The 407/Territory V6 twin turbo engine is probs the go to..use the six speed auto as the Terri has it 1: fitted as standard and 2: has the transfer case set up. Demannu it may be easier to adapt the drive line than the engine.
    Brendan.
    Unfortunately the V6 is significantly larger than the original V8, and requires chassis modifications and custom exhaust work to get it to fit. The 4 cylinder will be more than adequate.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  8. #8
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    2,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    These engines' torque and power curves are all different. What about the transmission ratios and programming? It might prove to be better to fit a complete engine/transmission combo. I'll leave you to sort the diff ratio and tyre size.

    You can certainly make long trips without a long range tank. I did years ago, when fuel outlets were much fewer, with a thirsty 2.25 L diesel Landie with only one standard tank. It was under the driver's seat. The passenger's seat housed a couple of 6V tractor batteries, also standard. A Jerry can came along for the ride.
    The P38 uses a ZF 4HP24 transmission, which is just a beefed up version of the 4HP22. All iterations of the 4HP22/24 transmissions had the same gearing, whether they were fitted to a 2 litre Peugeot 505 petrol, 4.6 V8 Range Rover or 2.5 litre BMW diesel, etc.

    Adjusting the shift points is achievable if necessary, however I think the diesel torque curve is so similar to the V8 that it shouldn't need much adjusting.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  9. #9
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,423

    Default

    Try the land rover forum. People have done this quite a few times. cheapest way to do it is probably to buy a TD5 discovery and just move the driveline over (that way you get the noisy gear driven transfer case that is far more reliable).

    How far are you travelling Ignoring fuel economy, work out the cost in dollars per hundred kms. If you aren't going somewhere where gas is expensive and hard to find, the cost works out similars to travelling with a diesel engine.

    I towed the block of flats to QLD and back ..... your probably talking an average of 35L/100 on LPG towing. In my case I only had 60litres of LPG on board (do the maths on how far I could travel before searching for gas).

    The V6 diesel used in 407/c5/c6/land rovers is probably the best conversion. given its sold in land rovers you can probably buy a wrecked one and move the transfer case and gearbox over.

    https://www.bodylogicuk.com/index.php/11/327170/



    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 4th September 2019 at 10:26 AM.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts CEyssens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Berwick VIC AUS
    Posts
    1,050

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    I've had a lot of people tell me that the 2 litre won't have enough torque for the P38. And yet it makes more torque, starting from lower RPM than the 4.0 litre V8 and the 2.5 litre BMW turbo diesel engine that was available in the P38. So I don't think that is a valid argument.

    The V6 engine would be nice, but requires more work than I am willing to do at this point. It has been done, but it requires chassis modification and custom exhaust manifolds and turbo setups as the RH turbo will try to be in the same place as the steering box. And PSA dropped the V6 in favour of their 4 cylinders as the DW12 was making more power and torque a lot more cheaply.

    Yes it's definitively capable I completely agree and when considering modifications to fit a V6 or V8 or another type it will become more attractive.
    The DW10 produces more torque? I figured lower based on your stats (although comparing torque curves is more relevant):
    Some specs:
    Rover V8 | Peugeot RHZ
    Cylinders 8 | 4
    Displacement 4552cc | 1997cc
    Power 222hp (less on LPG) | 110hp, 150 after remap
    Torque 407Nm (less on LPG) | 250Nm, 360 after remap
    Max torque RPM 2600 | 1750
    Dropping from 407 to 250 would be a noticeable difference in driving effort/feel.

  11. #11
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    2,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CEyssens View Post
    Yes it's definitively capable I completely agree and when considering modifications to fit a V6 or V8 or another type it will become more attractive.
    The DW10 produces more torque? I figured lower based on your stats (although comparing torque curves is more relevant):
    Some specs:
    Rover V8 | Peugeot RHZ
    Cylinders 8 | 4
    Displacement 4552cc | 1997cc
    Power 222hp (less on LPG) | 110hp, 150 after remap
    Torque 407Nm (less on LPG) | 250Nm, 360 after remap
    Max torque RPM 2600 | 1750
    Dropping from 407 to 250 would be a noticeable difference in driving effort/feel.

    I'll make the table more complete to show all of the options available in the P38 Range Rover:

    _____________V8 4.6_____ | _____V8 4.0_____ | ____BMW M51____ | ___Peugeot RHZ___
    Cylinders ________8_______| _______8_______ | ________6_______ | _______4________
    Displacement ___4552cc____| _____3946cc____ | ______2497cc____ | _____1997cc______
    Power _________222hp____ | _____188hp_____ | ______136hp_____ | 110hp, 150hp after remap
    Torque ________407Nm____ | _____339Nm____ | ______270Nm____ | 250Nm, 360Nm after remap
    Max torque RPM _2600_____ | ______2600_____ | _______2200_____ | _____1750_______

    The remapped RHZ looks like a much better option now.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  12. #12
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,423

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    I'll make the table more complete to show all of the options available in the P38 Range Rover:

    _____________V8 4.6_____ | _____V8 4.0_____ | ____BMW M51____ | ___Peugeot RHZ___
    Cylinders ________8_______| _______8_______ | ________6_______ | _______4________
    Displacement ___4552cc____| _____3946cc____ | ______2497cc____ | _____1997cc______
    Power _________222hp____ | _____188hp_____ | ______136hp_____ | 110hp, 150hp after remap
    Torque ________407Nm____ | _____339Nm____ | ______270Nm____ | 250Nm, 360Nm after remap
    Max torque RPM _2600_____ | ______2600_____ | _______2200_____ | _____1750_______

    The remapped RHZ looks like a much better option now.
    This makes more sense. a bog standard driveline that will probably bolt straight in.

    Land Rover Discovery Series II 2.5 Td5 Engine Technical Data
    Aspiration : Turbo + Intercooler
    Compression Ratio : 19.5
    Maximum power - Output - Horsepower : 137 PS or 135 bhp or 101 kW @ 4200 rpm
    Maximum torque : 340 Nm or 250 lb.ft @ 1950 rpm

    Obvoiusly they put out MUCH more power and torque if you play with them.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! fnqvmuch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    port douglas
    Posts
    975

    Default

    if anything like my application it will pull like a train (and hills are a hoot!) but obviously weight & windage are key.
    grandC4picasso RHB, [email protected] , EGS6Sp, B58, MY 2012-2013 (?)

  14. #14
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,423

    Default

    btw: I might know where there is a low milage Disco II with turbo re-mapping and modified v8 torque converter .... sitting with a dead gearbox (the standard gearbox obviously doesn't like the extra torque generated). He reckons the biggest difference was made by using a modified v8 torque converter (it must have a higher stall speed)
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  15. #15
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    2,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    btw: I might know where there is a low milage Disco II with turbo re-mapping and modified v8 torque converter .... sitting with a dead gearbox (the standard gearbox obviously doesn't like the extra torque generated). He reckons the biggest difference was made by using a modified v8 torque converter (it must have a higher stall speed)
    I would consider a TD5, if I could find one at a decent price. It would have to be cheap.

    They are either too expensive, have head problems, or are due for a complete overhaul.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  16. #16
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,423

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    I would consider a TD5, if I could find one at a decent price. It would have to be cheap.

    They are either too expensive, have head problems, or are due for a complete overhaul.
    I'll ask him and see if he is interested in sellling .... and at what price. It is a complete, tidy Disco II that has been sitting for probably 3years now since the gearbox died.
    Demannu likes this.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! Pug72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    304

    Default

    Hi Scott

    Very interesting conversion. Would be unique for sure. I am a little unsure how the 407 engine would push the weight of the P38.

    I've been around landrovers for a long time with owning/restoring a 1986 Range Rover, and currently driving a highly modified 1998 Defender 300Tdi 130. (i've restored a couple of Series Landrovers too).

    I hear you on the high fuel consumption. My Range Rover had a 4.6 built engine pushing 35" tyres, long range fuel tank (120L) plus 2 x sills tanks (2 x 65L) and I was always watching the fuel gauge move left at alarming rate.

    I've done some work to the 300Tdi and on the Dyno it puts out 104 RWHP. See attached Dyno data. This is on a truck weighing 3T in standard city driving mode and running 285/75 R16 Mickey Thompson MTZ tyres.

    My pick would be the TD5 engine. These engines are strong and can be chipped, bigger intercooler, straight through exhaust plus decat and can put out high horsepower all day. TD5's are used in many comp truck in England. Would be easy to mate to the current ZF box too.

    It would be worth doing a rebuild on any TD5 that you obtain second hand. There are a few known issues - Oil in injector harness, Fuel cooler problems (leaks) and oil pick up bolts coming loose. Maintenance is the key to keeping the cooling system running well.

    Parts are relatively cheap and easy to get hold of - There's Triumph Rover Spares in Lonsdale SA and British Offroad at Nambour in QLD. Both are wreckers and sell new parts.

    I also buy new landrover parts from British Autoparts in Victoria or if you can wait for a bit and want to save some money try Paddocks or John Craddock both in England. All of these have great websites.

    AULRO is a good source of information, and there are other forums out of England too - like Defender2.net.

    Good luck
    Andrew
    Attached Files Attached Files

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •