Timing chain rattle ? Or pinging ?
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Thread: Timing chain rattle ? Or pinging ?

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Default Timing chain rattle ? Or pinging ?

    Apart from my Peugeot 505, I have bought a VY Commodore V6 to fix up and resell, in order to turn a small profit. I'm good to go, except that the dratted thing appears to have a rattling timing chain.
    It has dual fuel and has been mostly run on LPG, and has only 156,000 Ks on it.

    I recently put in some new oil which is thicker....Valvolene 15-40 Engine Armour, semi-synthetic.....about as thick as you can go on these cars. But it hasn't affected the noise at all.

    It really sounds like the timing chain rattling in my old Peugeot, so I am assuming it is not the balance shaft as someone on a Commodore forum suggested.

    It rattles on acceleration only.

    The odd thing is that it disappears when the engine becomes hot. There must be a clue there.

    If it was the timing chain, wouldn't it still rattle when the engine is hot ?

    I seem to remember from older cars that they would ping if there was a slight air leak in the intake manifold somewhere (like one of he small rubber tubes coming off). Or is my memory misleading me ?

    Maybe it's pinging ? A mechanic's report from its last service by the previous owner says that there is an intake manifold leak, but nothing else is said about it. But then we come back to the fact that it disappears when the engine is hot....

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    Fellow Frogger! dieselman's Avatar
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    Check for loose heat shields on the exhaust.
    I had an LPG V6 Rodeo that sounded like it was pinging on acceleration.
    Apparently, the octane rating of LPG is quite high, so pinging is not common.
    Does it only happen at a certain rev range?

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Use a stethoscope (or a length of rubber hose) and listen around the timing chain cover.
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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dieselman View Post
    Check for loose heat shields on the exhaust.
    I had an LPG V6 Rodeo that sounded like it was pinging on acceleration.
    Apparently, the octane rating of LPG is quite high, so pinging is not common.
    Does it only happen at a certain rev range?

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    +1......

    or a loose clamp riding up and down the piping

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    Piston rattle goes away when hot. VY is still the Buick pushrod engine?

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    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
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    If the rattle goes away wouldnt that indicate that the timing chain is fine and it is an oil pressure problem? Im assuming that the chain tensioner is hydraulic.

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    I hadn't thought about the rev range. I only noticed it does it only on acceleration....will check.

    Will try a stethoscope (or length of dowel), but it doesn't ordiniarily rattle unless accelerating. Having said that, I guess there must be some residual rattle.
    But having said THAT, engines are noisy bloody things when you get a stethoscope onto them, so I may not hear it.

    Piston rattle ? At only 156,000 Ks ? These Ecotech V6 engines are known for their longevity..

    Oil pressure ? Good point....but it takes until he engine warms up, which is a few minutes....

    It rattles on Petrol as well as LPG, though it's been a while since I ran it on LPG. Will fill up today and test what you guys have mentioned. I shall also wait till the petrol's low and then put in some 98 octane....

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Which engine? Old iron pushrod Ecotec, or twin can alloy Alloytec? If its the old Buick lump, ignore it nothing breaks on those.

    If its the Alloytec, I'd be surprised if it doesn't have a timing chain rattle at those kms... Big job too and cant be ignored as the cam angle sensors will throw codes.
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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Twin cam alloy....

    Today I put in some 98 octane fuel and the rattle almost disappeared. The big test will be tomorrow morning when I start it cold.

    I had not been using the LPG for a while because of some silly issue....I think that it only really pinged on petrol.

    Will report my findings tomorrow. Still unsure WHY it has been pinging...

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
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    Fingers crossed.

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    Pinging happens under load. Seeing there's no load, I would eliminate that.

    The "bush stethoscope" (i.e. a runner hose in your earhole) works a treat.

    Using a dowel or screwdriver touching the engine can be used (once you locate the offending item by waving the hose over the areas you suspect) to narrow it down e.g. front or rear bearings on a dynamo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    Twin cam alloy....

    Today I put in some 98 octane fuel and the rattle almost disappeared. The big test will be tomorrow morning when I start it cold.

    I had not been using the LPG for a while because of some silly issue....I think that it only really pinged on petrol.

    Will report my findings tomorrow. Still unsure WHY it has been pinging...
    Hi
    Just a suggestion to look into. Perhaps the timing has been 'played with' and advanced to run normally on LPG, as that is often done. Not sure how that would be done but a chip change or an intercepter perhaps ?
    Jaahn
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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Good suggestion, Jaahn, but I may put that to one side for the moment...it doesn't quite have the ring of truth for this situation.

    The stupid cursed thing is still rattling just as much while the engine's cold....on both LPG and 98 octane petrol. It really does sound just like a 505 or 504 that's pinging.

    I went to see a mechanic and he suggested changing the plugs. They won't be firing well if they're worn out or carboned up.....(and after all, it does sound like pinging, or incomplete ignition of the fuel).

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    Hi Beano
    Look at this ! http://www.acl.com.au/web/acl00056.n...e?OpenDocument
    http://www.powerchipgroup.com/datasheets/1/HOL0191.pdf
    Or what about this service information on their timing chain failures ??
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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Thanks Jaahn..
    However the first article talks about LPG and distributors (my car hasn't got one).

    The second article about a chip that improves power (and I don't know if it's been chipped but if it has it may well be an improvement).

    And the third article about cars made from 2005 onwards, whereas mine is a 2004 model. They are pretty specific about the engine types in that article, too. Having said that, mine may simply be stretched....but why does the noise go away when the engine is hot ?

    I'll look through them again later...feeling too irritable right now.

    Meanwhile, I took out a spark plug and is almost new. So no go with that idea.
    Took the car out earlier and same old stuff....pinging / timing chain rattling sound, then it disappears COMPLETELY when hot....even if I put my foot down going up a hill..
    It MUST be pinging, rather than a timing chain issue....that noise would remain when hot...

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    At those kms on an early Alloytec, I'd say the chances of it not being a timing chain are remote. When hot it might even have better oil pressure if its sludged and oil is having trouble getting to things when cold.

    If its a fixer upper, the $500ish spent on the timing kit etc is not misplaced and will certainly be a selling point.

    Its one of those "not hard but massively time consuming" jobs as I understand it. It hence a big $$ job on labour, so worth it as a DIY.

    Stacks of online and youtube how to guides. Early versions of the "high Feature" V6 apparently have shitty crankcase ventilation and hence sludge up easily - killing the chains.
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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
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    If possible, do an oil pressure test and see what you get.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Oil pressure ? Hmm....OK.

    I did put in some "Lifter Free" additive yesterday in the hope that it would dissipate any sludge generally.

    Will price a timing belt, just in case. Or warm up the engine before a buyer comes over

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    Oil pressure ? Hmm....OK.



    Will price a timing belt, just in case. )
    Timing chains plural. All three of them...

    And I tell a lie, not even remotely $500! Add another 100 or so for gasket goo and coolant and whatnot.

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/For-Hold...75.c100623.m-1

    If was a keeper I'd perhaps spend a bit more for a known brand, but to sell a cheapie chinese kit would likely be fine.
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Thanks for thinking of me Haakon, but I have a VY and that link is to a VZ, which is a completely different sort of engine.
    I just looked at one for a VY and it is a single chain, just lije in a Peugeot 504, with a big sprocket and a little sprocket.
    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VT-VX-VY...frcectupt=true


    I guess my main question now is : does anyone know if a timing chain rattle would disappear when the engine is hot ?

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Oh sorry, thought you said twin cam alloy. Wasnt VY the series where it could be either? Or was that VZ?

    If you have the old Buick pushrod lump then ignore it. Its more likely an exhaust manifold leak on those engines.
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  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    To tell the truth, I am embarrassed to say that I cannot tell if this engine is pushrod or overhead cam....I just assumed it was overhead cam. It looks like one.

    The noise which disappears when it heats up would be consistent with something on the exhaust manifold, like a heat shield. That seems to fit the bill. It just sounds so much like pinging....

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