306 arms on 309
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Thread: 306 arms on 309

  1. #1
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    Default 306 arms on 309

    What are the current thoughts on fitting 306 rear arms to 205/309? The 309 rally car is nearly sorted now but just need to tame down the rear, great on corners but diabolical on straight slippery gravel roads, particularly those with camber on them! 306 arms don't have the toe out (or as much) the 205/309 ones have.
    Shouldn't be a problem with track increase as I have 15mm spacers in order to use Mi16 wheels.

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    Last edited by GRAHAM WALLIS; 10th May 2019 at 07:42 PM.

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Codman's Avatar
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    Your more than welcome to take my 205 for a spin and see how you like it, with most of these things you find a different answer no matter who you ask
    Current -
    65' 404 Sedan,
    88' 205 GTI/16V
    92' 505 Custom Turbo Wagon
    92' 205 SI
    88' 505 GTI Wagon - PARTING OUT PM ME


    Gone -
    04' 206 RC (GTI180)
    2 X 405 STI,
    405 MI16
    98' 406 Coupe
    406 2l
    91' 205 SI
    306 Style,
    3 X 306 GTI6

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    Lots of other changes though Callum! How do you handle the increased track, flared arches? Probably time to look at the beam anyway after 2 long years and two pages of events in the Log Book!
    It presently has half a degree toe out on one side and 1.2 degrees on the other.

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    Do you still have the rear beam on rubber bushes?
    Adrian Wuillemin

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    Yes....

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    True, but apart from the rear ares the geo is all basically standard.

    The track difference is insignificant really and didn't require and fettling, the flares are there only for when i run the wide R tires
    Current -
    65' 404 Sedan,
    88' 205 GTI/16V
    92' 505 Custom Turbo Wagon
    92' 205 SI
    88' 505 GTI Wagon - PARTING OUT PM ME


    Gone -
    04' 206 RC (GTI180)
    2 X 405 STI,
    405 MI16
    98' 406 Coupe
    406 2l
    91' 205 SI
    306 Style,
    3 X 306 GTI6

  7. #7
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    I would start by removing the rubber. When loaded up they change the geometry at the back and make it feel unstable..

    On the track if the car still has them they have massive snap over steer issues.
    Adrian Wuillemin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Wuillemi View Post
    I would start by removing the rubber. When loaded up they change the geometry at the back and make it feel unstable..

    On the track if the car still has them they have massive snap over steer issues.
    Trouble is that car is used on some very rough surfaces at times and direct mounting would be pretty unpleasant and maybe damaging to the body shell. Also, cornering forces aren't as high as on the track and there is no problem on high grip surfaces, just slippery cambered ones when driving in a straight line.
    I will keep this in mind though Adrian, thanks.
    Pulled the beam apart and the RHS was nearly seized, water has got in, we did some very very wet events last year.
    Last edited by GRAHAM WALLIS; 10th May 2019 at 07:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Codman View Post
    True, but apart from the rear ares the geo is all basically standard.

    The track difference is insignificant really and didn't require and fettling, the flares are there only for when i run the wide R tires
    The problem with track I had was probably due to the Si bodyshell then.

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    Graham having that much toe out in the rear, especially unequal, will make the 'Tail wag the Pug.'
    Was used by some to make a FWD Rally car turn in faster on Tuliped events (ie when they came in too hot!).
    However a more benign car is faster as it is 'told' what to do, not what it 'wants' to do.
    Brendan.

  11. #11
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    Yes, I was told that by a few experienced people at the finish of the South West Stages. Denise Collins was adamant her Civic was stable and without toe out. She is making a comeback at the Rally of the Heartlands in June by the way.
    I built the 309 partly as it would be more stable than a 205, so far it hasn't been the case, but the car is really good apart from that problem.

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    It presently has half a degree toe out on one side and 1.2 degrees on the other.
    Well there's your problem. None of the 205 or 306 arms have toe out. Toe out is great for turn in. I run 2 degrees toe out, via custom arms & axles. Do a search on the 205 Forum. I think you'll find a 205 GTi is approx 2mm toe in and the 306 is 4mm toe in. Stable but uninspiring.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Figures for 1.6 GTI seems to be two different settings?
    Rear wheelToe angle3,6 1.5 mm / 035' 14'Camber (no correction possible)-050' 30'
    Every time I've checked a 205 rear toe it has had toe out.

  14. #14
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    I had 306 arms on the 205 rally car, still had plenty of lift off oversteer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Figures for 1.6 GTI seems to be two different settings?
    Rear wheelToe angle3,6 1.5 mm / 035' 14'Camber (no correction possible)-050' 30'
    Every time I've checked a 205 rear toe it has had toe out.
    Maybe you've been measuring it backwards?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Or the different wheel aligners that measured it for me?
    The half degree figure looks interesting, maybe the earlier models?

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Why don't you measure the total amount yourself? It's not a hard task.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Yes, I guess you are right, just use a tape measure? At the moment the beam is apart but I'll give measuring a try with the 306 arms, fitted with new shafts and ready to refit. If there is still a problem, it would be a bent tube, I might need to cut down a 306 beam tube.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    You need to make a big pair of outside callipers. Measure the rims at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    I have seen bent arms and also stub axles.

    They are very simple to align, our alignment guy fixed Parrys with a porta power. Just a tweak and got the arms pointing in the correct direction
    Adrian Wuillemin

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    Fitted the arms, no difference that I could definitely point to. However, I discovered a destroyed LCA bush, looked OK from the outside but not the case. Much better now. I put MRF tyres on for the Rally of the Heartland at Burra last weekend, they lasted for 440km of sometimes rocky stages but grip was only average. Pirellis seem to be the go, will try them next. Great result in the rally, 7th O/R. Car is close to being sorted now, although some repairs to be made, first is to find out why it is using coolant while a pressure test shows no leakage.
    Brett likes this.

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