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Thread: Gti6: Muffler?

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Default Gti6: Muffler?

    My mechanic recently noticed that my centre muffler/resonator might be starting to crap itself as it sounded like there was something was loose inside when tapped. So anyway I went to an exhaust place that was recommended, and that guy noticed it too. Now that's alright, but he also noticed there was a small crack on the outside casing of the muffler that may be leaking some gas.

    The exhaust shop suggested a replacement of everything cat back. Basically the pipe diameter would remain the same, another similar resonator would be inserted, but then the suprise, the exhaust shop recommended TWO straight thru mufflers be inserted to replace the one with the crack. He said with the the two straight thru mufflers the system would flow better than the oem and noise would be marginally 'throatier'. He reckons he's done this on other pugs with excellent results. I know other pugs have gone to this shop, I just want to get a second opinion about the 'excellent results' part.

    I'm always reluctant to put something non-standard, especially something like an exhaust considering the possible effect on both performance and noise (which is important to me that it's not much noisier than standard). Cost of the oem system is far more than going to the exhaust shop, that's the problem. It's just that I've never heard about the 2 mufflers thing.

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    Can anyone shed any light?
    cheers,
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    New S16 Exhaust Questions

    there were a few topics on the issue of rattly mid mufflers. Judging by the numbers I actully feel that the problem must be related to the engine pipe movement or the resonant frequencies in the pug. It just happens too often on the 306's. Or maybe the 306 drivers just take the car for higher revving trips more often. ???
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    mine has been rattly since it was about 6 months old but there is a story behind what the dealer said it was and the truth to what it really was and once the car was out of warranty they then reverted back to the truth and wanted to charge for a new OEM muffler which i rejected

    the old one is still in the car and i'll get around to just sticking an aftermarket resonator on it whenever i get around to it

    it rattles a little at idle and the exhaust seems to get a cackle at around 3000rpm

    other than that it is easily lived with

    oh and if it ever rains it get the rattles as well and if i take it hard through a left hand bend, both of these are pretty rare
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by tekkie
    New S16 Exhaust Questions

    there were a few topics on the issue of rattly mid mufflers. Judging by the numbers I actully feel that the problem must be related to the engine pipe movement or the resonant frequencies in the pug. It just happens too often on the 306's. Or maybe the 306 drivers just take the car for higher revving trips more often. ???
    Tekkie, rambo, thanks for your quick response. I have no idea what causes them, you're not wrong about us '6 drivers giving our cars a bit of stick . I can't notice anything from the sound from inside the car, and if performance has decreased, it's done so over a period of time that I can't actually notice it.

    The exhaust shop wants to charge around $400 total for the system, resonator back. That seems quite reasonable since it includes the 'two rear mufflers'....(I still have no idea where they plan to put those two mufflers but they said they've done it before and the shop did come recommended by a trusted pug mechanic)....

    The other option is to not stuff around and just go the standard system. I've been quoted $370 for the resonator and pipe to the rear muffler. I am guessing the oem rear muffler would be around $350..dunno. Then there's the cost of fitting. I'm not going to get that much change from a grand am I, if I got that route??

    Ahh it's not dead urgent yet as I can't hear or feel a thing so I can mull about it a bit longer. I'm just painfully pedantic.
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

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    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    I noticed a slight improvement with the new system as the thread linked above goes into. I wouldn't be worried too much about going non OEM, they quoted $1200 for a full original system too which was what I had replaced for $280 + pipe back to and including the rear box.
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    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Jude, it's a common problem with the GTI6, that intermediate is putting up with some pretty severe torsional forces. The GTi6 has baffles in the intermediate, and that's what's rattling. We've patched up a crack, and after that failed a few months later, we fabricated some metal onto it.

    You should be able get a decent intermediate pipe built for it, I believe you can get crystal packed ones, which may be a better idea on the 6. something better than baffles sounds like a good idea to me.

    As for replacing the whole system back from the extractors, I think that's overkill. The stock system is very good. I'd be careful of any drone you'd get by changing the stock system. If you don't mind drone, then go ahead and experiment.

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    I replaced the system from the extractors back with the one from Northshore Rally Sport (they also did the air filter). It did feel like more power and the dyno showed an improvement from the stock 118BHP to 132BHP, at the wheels.

    I like the fact with this system that it is not excessively noisy at normal revs. Yes it you give it a bootfull the neighbours won't be too happy, but the only the drone I get from it is when it is under load while cruising at any speed.

    If you are thinking of going this way then drop me a line as I have had and still having issues with the installation of this system. But that is another story.

    Stuart

    PS. Does anyone know if Northshore Rally Sport is still open as I am having trouble contacting them???

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    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    118bhp? I'm assuming this was a regular 306 then?

    Tekkie had this system on his GTI6, along with the intake. We found that it lost low end torque, but gained something up top. On the track the difference was negligible. Yes, this system did not drone much, and had a sexy note.

    As for Northshort Rallysport, well, they don't have a great reputation on this board.

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    Stuart, I'm not going to northshore myself, can't anyway cos I'm in Adelaide. When you got it dyno tested was the before and after tests done on the same day on the same dyno? Even then as everyone else here would say, that still doesn't mean it's very accurate, but if it was done the same day, I'd safely assume a 118 to 132 hp increase meant there was at least some real-world increase. You should definitely be able to feel that much of an increase though as that would translate to around 140 kW at the flywheel! I'm always skeptical that much power could be liberated from just an exhaust change on an already efficient system.

    I'd greatly appreciate it if you could tell me the details and issues you've had with the system. It'd be great if you could post it in detail here as I'm sure others would benefit from it also. If you don't want to do that though, let me know and I'll give you my email address.

    Lincoln, if it read 118 hp at the wheels, that makes sense for a gti6. Usually due to the losses, I assume around 30% that equates to 168 hp at the flywheel..almost the exact as the '6's factory output. Yeah I don't want drone! A tiny bit under load is tolerable, and if it sounded grunty under full throttle, fine, but at my age I know I don't want to cruise on the highway at 110 km/h and hear the exhaust for several hours.

    Anyway, update on it all. I was completely wrong about the two mufflers bit. I rang up the exhaust shop and I misunderstood him..he meant two mufflers as in the centre muffler and rear muffler! The other thing is, after reading that article from autospeed, I asked him about the price if I wanted the genie resonator (for the centre muffler) and the genie tornado for the rear muffler, as those items got very good flow and low noise results, and both stainless steel. The price was $550 fitted which sounds quite good.

    Then to see how much the oem route would cost me, I rang up peugeot for the cost of the rear muffler. I was informed $925!!!! I was tempted to tell them that I wanted just a rear muffler without the high-class hooker. So together with the centre muffler which comes as one piece with the pipe that leads to the rear muffler, and costs 'only' $370, fitted I wouldn't get much change from $1500..for the standard system! That's crap. So next I called a place called Euroex exhaust which does replacement systems for euro cars. They quoted me the replacement items which they said they 'are quite sure' comes from the same manufacturer as the oem parts, fitted for $1000 (270 for the centre, and 750 for the rear). The guy there also told me they could supply a rear muffler from Remus, made specifically for the '6, together with that 270 centre muffler, also fitted for $1000. He said the Remus is a straight-thru design so should flow better, and he said he was completely sure that the remus exhausts don't drone, and in fact I'd 'barely be able to hear it over the standard system from inside the car'. Sounds all very nice, but....

    I'm utterly now.

    btw I didn't know the standard '6 centre muffler had baffles in it! So does the gas still have a straight path through or is like a maze system?
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

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    Jude, Remus do have a good rep for making some of the best sounding mufflers/ resonators; but you pay for it. I had a Genie resonator and Genie turbo muffler on my S16 (just sold the exhaust to jumpin_pug recently) and I wouldn't say it was the quietest system. I ended up with a couple of different mufflers and was never really happy with the noise levels on long trips.....

    Have you looked at Flowmaster mufflers? They're supposed to be really good and are a totally different design to most others.

    I can recommend going to Everlast Mufflers in Ridgehaven and asking for advice. Unlike most places they won't just do the system they want to sell and will listen to what you want. I went to a place in Adelaide city for my S16's system saying I wanted a quiet system, the d**kheads gave it back to me with two straight through mufflers on it!? Needless to say it droned and was unbearable (and they originally just wanted to put the one muffler on it too!)

    Do your research carefully or you'll end up with an expensive system that annoys the hell out of you.
    David
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    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Jude, read up on the UK Peugeot forums, as they tend to make these mods more than the AF crew. I know Paul V likes Magnex, but I hear the Magnex system drones on the 6.

    Yep, baffles are used to slow down the air...my understanding of exhausts is that you need to cool down the air through the system... please correct me if I'm wrong.

    I'd go for the Genie one there. The OEM just isn't up to the task, it's not a rear muffler thing, it's a centre muffler design problem. I'd save my money, try the Genie and if that doesn't fix it, then look at some other solutions.

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    1000+ Posts gti138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MondeoST24

    I can recommend going to Everlast Mufflers in Ridgehaven and asking for advice. Unlike most places they won't just do the system they want to sell and will listen to what you want. I went to a place in Adelaide city for my S16's system saying I wanted a quiet system, the d**kheads gave it back to me with two straight through mufflers on it!? Needless to say it droned and was unbearable (and they originally just wanted to put the one muffler on it too!)

    Do your research carefully or you'll end up with an expensive system that annoys the hell out of you.
    Yeah I can recomend Everlast too They have done exhausts on my two previous cars. They may do one on the 206 when it needs replacing
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    Thanks for your input guys, I guess there's no clear cut answer. Lincoln, I did check out the UK forum, but the guys on there kinda scare me. There are definite exceptions, but in general I've noticed that they place a great deal of importance on a)how well they do at traffic light drags, b)how great their 18inch wheels look on really low suspension, and c)how great their loud exhausts sound. Kinda similar to our wrx forums

    I agree, I'll probably go the Genie route since it did get good reviews on noise and flow. The only thing about that exhaust shop is, even though it came recommended, the guy there said something that kinda scared me about going there. He said that with the straight through muffler it will slightly lose some torque down low but pick up at around 3 grand. When I confirmed with him that there'll be no change in pipe diameter, then asked him why would there be any loss down low, he said that it was cos of the lack of back pressure from the straight thru muffler! You'd think an exhaust shop would know that torque increase has everything to do with gas-flow and nothing to do with backpressure. That I know for sure. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether its possible to have a scavenging effect from a tri-flow muffler (such as the oem one) which you wouldn't get from a straight through muffler. I know my flow theory well, and can't for the life of me see how a tri-flow muffler can develop a low pressure area to aid scavenging. Can anyone shed any light on this?? My understanding is that all the scavenging needs to occur at the manifold, and the exhaust should just flow as unrestricted as possible.

    Dave, the Flowmaster muffler concept looks good, and they precisely claim that their mufflers do develop a low pressure area to aid scavenging. Just sounds a bit too good to be true. Thanks for the Everlast tip, I'll give them a call and see what they think. cheers.
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

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    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    on the exhaust principles I was led to believe that the scavenging occurs as long as there is a constant velocity flow. This usually stops as soon as you hit the 1st muffler or cool the air sufficiently enough that the benefits of scavenging are not worth the cost of extra tubing necessary to maintain even flow that complements the other cylinders. The design of the GTi6 extractors is pretty amazing and continues all the way under the floor of the pug where all the pipes join into the CAT converter.
    As soon as the scavenging is over its a matter of getting rid of gasses without interrupting the scavenging process. The pipe size, muffler design etc is supposed to maintain sufficient pressure and flow throughout the exhaust sytem to prevent any standing waves (audio term) and at worst reverberations at all revs that will interrupt the flow. As a basic guide there are recommended pipe sizes (I think it was posted before on the tech thread before, will attempt to find it) that road cars should consider.

    And as Lincoln said, somone please correct me if I was led up the garden path with the info.
    .
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    exhaust and gas flow behaviour theory by Quentin Oliver [me]

    standing waves are waves that reinforce amplitude upon reflection. whilst bad in audio they're good in an exhaust manifold if you can get a standing wave between the first expansion chamber (catalytic conv) and the exhaust valve. this is because reflection is occuring at the moment the valve opens and helps draw the gasses (scavenge) out of the chamber.

    in the cases that the cat does not aid scavenging then the intermediate will. if the intermediate is replaced with a straight-through system then the pressure reverberations made by an expanded chamber will not oscillate up and down the headers like the slinky spring that we N/A tune dudes want.

    these type of mufflers are popular because of our rice-racing-bretheren and their turbo evil. they get big gains and suddenly everyone is thinking that it'll work for their car...not.

    to understand the complexities of a race-inspired exhaust for an Naturally Aspirated vehicle then check out GMC Motorsport

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    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Quality topic, fellas.

    Quinten, so you're confirming what I'm saying there. Right? Would that mean it'd be best if Jude picked up the OEM one or at least one that was built for the 6? Perhaps a good workshop could have a look at your bugged interemediate and fabricate something of similar quality?

    Jude, yep, I know what you mean about the UK Forums, but you can get an idea as to how the various exhausts perform in regard to drone/noise. I wonder if you can get the Magnex intermediate only? The full system does look very nice from them.

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    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    118bhp? I'm assuming this was a regular 306 then?

    Tekkie had this system on his GTI6, along with the intake. We found that it lost low end torque, but gained something up top. On the track the difference was negligible. Yes, this system did not drone much, and had a sexy note.

    As for Northshort Rallysport, well, they don't have a great reputation on this board.
    The dynoing was done on different days and the guy who did it the first time found that the clutch was stuffed (A&J had to fork out for a new one!!!), so he suggested that it should have really been about 120-122. I should mention that this guy was probably the only Peugeot Mechanic that I have found, so far, that is a decent guy who doesn't seem to have told me some level of garbage. Unfortunately he works at a Peugeot dealerís workshop that I will not deal with again (EVER). Hopefully one day he might see an opportunity to go out on his own.

    Anyway back to the point... The fact is that I did notice an on road difference, and that is all I really care about. I just thought the figures would interesting!

    As for the full sorry tale about the install and problems with it, I will leave that for a later date, as I would still like a resolution to it.

    Stuart

    PS. If I had more faith in this current system I would do you a good price on my factory one... Damn!

  18. #18
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Thanks Stuart. Did you deal with Leigh at A&J? Leigh is on AF occasionally, but isn't actually an employee of A&J.

    Anyway, thanks for letting us know what you did. On the road, there's no doubt the Northshore kit feels nice and I reckon it "evens" out the lumpy delivery of the 6.

    Jude, you can buy just the system from Esscargo there... but...

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts N5GTi6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    mine has been rattly since it was about 6 months old but there is a story....

    .......snip.........

    oh and if it ever rains it get the rattles as well and if i take it hard through a left hand bend, both of these are pretty rare
    Jeez - these are the same bugs I've had with my '6' since day one. The very first time I ever went through any standing water on the road the exhaust banged so hard on the bottom of the car that I thought it was going to fall off!!

    The left hander at Wakefield where you're pointing back at the tower also has the exhaust banging hard underneath as well, but I've never been able to find where and what actually hits.

    I've never had any resonances or drones or rattles though, so, fingers crossed, maybe these are just 'quirks' I've managed to live with.

    I'm almost glad / relieved that someone else has mentioned this trait as well !

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    Ok from my limited knowledge I know there are two types of scavenging effect, one from the the momentum of the flowing gas and the second from the pressure wave being reflected back up when it reaches an expansion chamber. I know very little about this second pressure wave part, aside from the fact that the expansion chamber is definitely not the catalytic convertor!! Maybe if you gutted the thing, it could act as a secondary sort of expansion chamber, though I dunno about this.... Anyway, the expansion chamber that works on a header is when the invidual pipes come into 2, or 1 (depending if it's a 4-2-1 or 4-1 type). What you guys said about the standing wave I think is right from what I've read before, but like I said I only know a little bit about that from 2-stroke theory where they rely heavily on expansion chamber exhaust designs to get rid of the exhaust gases. This useful negative pressure wave is what must be confused with backpressure.

    Anyway, as for the momentum or inertial scavenging effect, that's just the pulse of exhaust gas travelling down the pipe at high velocity and therefore creating a vacuum behind it to scavenge out more exhaust gas. The greater the diameter of the header pipe, the greater the volume of gas needed to flow thru the pipe at high velocity. A small engine with large headers will result in slow gas velocity until high rpm. I agree with tekkie that after the headers, the rest of the exhaust system should just flow as well as possible. Too large a pipe after the headers and you've just created another expansion chamber that's slowing the gases down. Anyway, this is just my understanding of it from a flow theory point of view and I'm going to find out for sure one of these days. Bernoulli was a bastard.

    Lincoln, the magnex systems looks great, but it's a bit pricey and I heard some reports that it's very loud. Dunno. I rang up Everlast exhausts on the other's recommendations and they seemed really good on the phone. They said they'll even temp fit a series of rear mufflers so I could check if it's too loud. It's not urgent though so I have plenty of time to make a well-informed bad decision
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart R
    Anyway back to the point... The fact is that I did notice an on road difference, and that is all I really care about. I just thought the figures would interesting!

    As for the full sorry tale about the install and problems with it, I will leave that for a later date, as I would still like a resolution to it.

    Stuart

    PS. If I had more faith in this current system I would do you a good price on my factory one... Damn!
    Stu, that's the important thing, that you felt the difference.
    I hope the problems with the install are resolved, let me know, if I still haven't got a replacement one by then, I'll definitely be interested in yours depending on condition and price.

    N5gti6, you haven't noticed anything from a performance point of view?
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

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    1000+ Posts kermit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    As for Northshort Rallysport, well, they don't have a great reputation on this board.
    Why so?
    Cheers Simon
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    1000+ Posts kermit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart R
    I should mention that this guy was probably the only Peugeot Mechanic that I have found, so far, that is a decent guy who doesn't seem to have told me some level of garbage. Unfortunately he works at a Peugeot dealerís workshop that I will not deal with again (EVER).
    If he is a good mechanic why won't you deal with the dealer?
    Cheers Simon
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    Hi Jude,

    If you pop down Richmond Road and go to AAA Exhausts they have a big range of items to help you out, and are very helpful, i bought a resonator for the 205 not long ago, I installed it myself so I don't know what their fitting is like but may be worth a look.
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    Fellow Frogger! MondeoST24's Avatar
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    Pugsy, what brands of mufflers do they sell? Any Flowmasters?
    David
    Former 306 S16 owner- now own a Mondeo ST24 V6

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