205 clutch disc job , need help please
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  1. #1
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    Default 205 clutch disc job , need help please

    I have a 205 1.8 diesel, i might need to replace the clutch and thrust bearing. I have never done a transverse engine before , UK and american yes , what do i need to do, engine in out or what please.
    Can someone give me a run down on what tools etc and the procedure and how heavy is the gearbox, will i need a hoist. Will i need to support the engine.
    Never done a transverse before .
    Is there a you tube of this ?.

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    Fellow Frogger! CEyssens's Avatar
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    Default 205 clutch disc job , need help please

    Hi,
    There are a few guides out on the web, it can be done with engine in however some do take the lot out. This link is for some useful guides on doing the job with engine in.

    https://www.205gtidrivers.com/articl...ox-drivetrain/

    Iíve just completed this and many others here also have done this job so any specific questions you have should be easily answered on this thread once youíve had a look through the guides.
    cheers
    Craig

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    Thanks mate, just need to do homework first before grabbing a tool.

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    If you are only doing clutch, leave the engine in. If you are taking the opportunity to do timing belt and water pump at the same time, take it out - you'll lose less knuckle skin.

    In a nutshell.
    Disconnect the battery, you'll be messing with the starter motor.
    Jacked up and on chassis stands good and secure because you're going to laying under the front of this thing for a while.
    Both drive shafts out - special tools decent impact gun and nut to suit the nuts on the drive shafts + ball joint tool.
    You will also need a deep 11mm socket to release the intermediate bearing on the long shaft. Along with the 11mm you either need a 90 degree pneumatic ratchet or a heap of extensions to get a ratchet far enough away so you can swing it. Punch the lower ball joint and steering tierod end off the hub to make it easier to get the axle out.
    Remove the oil from the gearbox and pull both shafts out.
    Remove the torque mount between the back of the motor and the chassis. Once both bolts are out of the mount you can push the motor forward and then drop the mount out.
    now you can start to lower the gearbox end of the motor. Put a jack under it for security and undo the bearbox mount. The gearbox end will lower way. you need to judge just how much room you need at this point. You may have to release the K frame to allow you to pull the frame toward the back of the car and make more room for the diff housing to clear.
    Release the clutch cable, the reverse switch and the speedo cable before you go any further.
    You can probably unbolt the starter motor without disconnecting it - there are 3 bolts to find.
    Support the back of the sump once you have it pointing down far enough. Then you can release the gearbox from the back of the motor and you're in business. From memory 16mm AF spanner for 10mm bolts and an allenkey to suit M10s too.
    With the gearbox released it has to slide off the spline about 60mm before it is free. The box is manageable by yourself but easier if you have a trolley jack under it. I guess it weighs about 45kg?

    Installation is simply reverse of above.
    racing 405
    1:59:09 last time at Phillip Island - less than standard Mi16.

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    Thanks for the reply mate .
    Bloody heck, i,ve got to get my head around this one . This transverse engine lark is something else
    Do i really need a air gun wrench ?, because i dont have one !!! Theres not much room for an extension bar for the nuts on the driveshafts , what torque are they at !
    Might be easier to pull the engine and gearbox as a combo , my mate next door has a tractor with attatchments for the front to lift heavy straw bales and stuff . We could easily lift that out .
    If i make up a spreader bar for the engine do you see any snags with pulling the lot in one go with the front of the car dis-assembled.
    And faffing about to get the lot re aligned with the engine in could be a pain . I looked up the box weight ,yeah around 40Kg , i dont fancy that task of wiggling etc to get it back in place .
    If i get the lot out in one i can do other stuff as well like the belt and water pump etc and give a clean up.
    One more question i have .
    There is a very slight oil leak at the flywheel end , i can only assume it is a rear crank oil seal or a gearbox leak.
    If a crank oil seal, will i have to pull the flywheel .

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Of course. You didn't imagine the oil seal would be in front of the flywheel?

    But the leak can come from the g'box as well, from the input shaft seal, which means you'd have to check that one as well.

    Removing the entire engine might be easier to do by just dropping it instead of lifting it (the bonnet might be in the way if you have a high crane).

    To drop it, you can just undo everything around the engine (including the exhaust manifold) and pull the driveshafts out of the 'box and drop it on a creeper or some such.

    Alternatively, you can unbolt the subframe and take the whole bazoonga out with suspension and steering rack and everything.

    Either way, with all that weight gone the front of the car is easy to lift and prop up to allow you to slide the thing out, or just lift and walk the car back to clear.

    I am not sure I understand the point about there not being too much room for the extension bars mentioned above. You need a fair bit of leverage to crack the driveshaft nuts and the crankshaft pulley nut. In fact, I would recommend you take the pulley out before you take the engine out. That pulley is a very fragile espece de merde. You drop it, or hit it, or put some strain on it, or sneeze at it or just look at it the wrong way, it chips. Besides, with the engine out it will be difficult to apply the full torque you need to undo the bolt without propping the engine very solidly somehow after you lock the crankshaft (which is also easier to do with the engine in car - just put it in reverse and apply the handbrake). That is why you were recommended a rattle gun. That makes an easy job out of these bolts/nuts.

    With the main rear seal, be careful to a) buy a Viton seal (to withstand high temperatures - OEM parts are Viton, but you could potentially get it cheaper from a bearing place), and b) check if the old seal has worn a groove in the crankshaft flange. If it did, you need to do clean the burs it creates on the sides of this groove (feel with your fingernail) and then you need to space out (or in) the new seal so it doesn't run in the groove otherwise it will leak straight away. To help with this, you can order a different thickness seal (they are available from good bearing retailers, not sure if Peugeot offers these) or use a tricky-to-make spacer to space it out. I can elaborate if you're interested.

    Take it easy.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 15th February 2018 at 04:35 AM.
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    Thanks for the reply . All points noted there especially the crank pulley !!. and the seals .
    Not too sure if i want to take the subframe off though but its rather tempting to do so , have to think about that one .
    The crank seals i will replace but the bit about wear and spacers that please tell me more before i get into this !.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Well, the problem is the crankshaft flange develops a groove as it wears together with the oil seal (and this is true of almost every shaft I have seen running through an oil seal - not sure how it happens, but it's a fact of life). If you just replace the seal there are two dangers.

    Number one, your new seal will run in the groove, which not being the nominal diameter for the seal will allow oil to escape via the groove (if the groove is too deep, your oil seal will do nothing to keep the oil in).

    Number two, in the process of wearing the groove in the shaft, the shaft material is pushed laterally and creates a burr you can easily feel with your finger nail. This is very sharp and can easily damage the delicate sealing lip of the seal right as you install it, so your seal is going to be cactus from day one and leak.

    That is why I recommended close inspection. If your car has done more than 200000k's, you can be sure you will find a decent size groove in the shaft if nobody has replaced the seal before or they didn't dress the groove burrs.

    Like I said above, there are a few workarounds, see above.
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    Well that one never occured to me ! Thanks mate . I don,t want to do all the work and find out its worse than i began .
    Looks like a few emails to seal suppliers for Viton then .
    I dont think peugeot would offer any gear for this motor anymore , looks like a search for engineering companys that deal with spacers etc , unknown territory !.
    How many fraction MMs / Thou deep is the groove poss going to be ?

    Thanks again

  10. #10
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    Checking for groves on shaft sealing surface is important but donít get wrapped up in fixing a problem unless you have one to fix.
    Just buy the correct seal, check the surface when you get there and deal with it if you need to, hopefully itís a straight seal replacement.

    Iíd be making a list of parts and then once you have the gear get into it.

    All shaft seals definitely (and oil them when you put them in).
    Timing belt, if the age is old or unknown you should be planning it anyway. Along with the timing belt again all shaft seals, and do all belt pulleys, timing idler and if you have air conditioning do that idler also, and water pump.

    Clutch, get a good one, OEM if you can and full kit, resurface flywheel (so it has to come off anyway and you can get to the seal. Clutch cable, is it smooth to operate? They are cheap so consider that and the bushes for the cable linkages.

    You have to mess with a bunch of stuff to do this job so keep in mind or check hose condition for any you are working on and the water pipe in the RHS wing if you are doing the timing belt youíll be there and that pipe is often corroded.

    Current condition of your car and service history sort of dictate where you should be going and how much it could snowball, and how much you are comfortable doing.

    Best of luck and fortune, a fun job indeed.

    cheers
    Craig

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    The easiest way to deal with an oil seal groove is to use a different thickness seal. The trick is to find one. Good bearing shops will be able to offer alternatives. I am sure there is an option for the 205GTI, not sure for your diesel. I know because I have been offered two options at the bearing shop I go to and the difference was in thickness. I thought to myself, this is good to know for next time.

    I make my own spacers. The groove is about 1mm wide. When I clean it, I don't trust the new seal to ride right on the edge, so I use a 1.5mm spacer cut from fibreglass PCB. It is a laborious and dirty process, and I don't recommend it to anyone. I have a lathe and it is a bit easier, but still very dirty. Lots of fibreglass dust. I'm sure there is a better way to do it, but I didn't find it.

    Put it briefly, you need to cut a ring the size of the oil seal inner face (so oil can still get to the oil seal lip), so it's a very thin ring (1.5mm) and about 2mm on the radius, with the outside diameter equal to the outside diameter of the seal so one face sits nice and flat against the block and the other face against the oil seal outer edge.

    The way I cut it is I chuck in the lathe a piece of fibreglass PCB (with the copper on it). I use a bolt and a nut to secure it in the chuck, and I cut the outer diameter after I score both the inner and outer diameters. I bring the outer diameter to size and then I inch slowly deeper and deeper into the inner diameter until it pulls free. A bit of sanding inside and out and voila! You have your spacer.

    If you're doing a large diameter you might need to use some flat stock or something to keep the PCB from going all wobbly on you (dangerous because it can snap at you). I have a round off cut of Aluminium and I superglue the PCB to it. It holds very well and comes off with heat (hot water) or acetone. This is a cleaner method, but takes more faffing around with chemicals.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  12. #12
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    Right thanks for the replies , its all starting to form a basic plan here .

  13. #13
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    A Speedi Sleeve may be an option if there's a groove in the sealing surface.

    SKF Speedi-Sleeve


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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