2009 C5 Tourer height adjustment issue - Page 2
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Thread: 2009 C5 Tourer height adjustment issue

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    I should have added - there is a "procedure" for topping up/filling and purging the suspension LDS. It is in the carnet. With a diagnostic computer and without. There are accounts in AF - it is straightforward
    Thanks Seasink, one of the cars had a bottle of LDS in a rear compartment.. I had tried to download the Workshop manual 'carnet' before but got lost in the confusion.. and being a newbie did not even realize that AF was in fact this forum.

    Seeing the tank above the pump, and understanding that the pump would operate via signals from the ECU. I had imagined that it would be a return to tank flow and that a few ups and down would resolve any air bubbles or issues of the sort.
    If I am correct, for those that know, feel free to confirm or explain otherwise as I have above, Over

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  2. #27
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    Here are some more downloads that may interest hydraulic C5 owners:
    http://www.crdp-montpellier.fr/resso.../U11_sujet.pdf
    https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2009/11/2...eneralites.pdf
    (A tech college subject in France)

    Please forgive all the French, but finding this stuff in English is difficult.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    AF= AussieFrogs
    Oh...

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    Here are some more downloads that may interest hydraulic C5 owners:
    http://www.crdp-montpellier.fr/resso.../U11_sujet.pdf
    https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2009/11/2...eneralites.pdf
    (A tech college subject in France)

    Please forgive all the French, but finding this stuff in English is difficult.
    Oh very good, exploded diagrams.
    Last edited by Biker; 30th January 2018 at 09:33 PM.

  5. #30
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    A new fuze restored height adjustment functions. The 'pump' or the 'electric motor' was however quite noisey..
    After a few minutes, some fumes were seen coming from the electric motor.

    I will remove the motor and pump now, with the suspension set to lowest.
    clean everything up and see what we can see..

    Dilemma: Is the electric motor at fault, brushes, bearings or whatever..?
    Or is the electric motor overloaded with a faulty pump?

  6. #31
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    Once the pump was removed I took the back plate off the pump motor and I could immediately see the problem, around the electrical brushes and commutator there was a horrible black paste, it looked like a mixture of grease (from the bearing?) and carbon dust produced from the electrical brushes as they wear. I cleaned this up and ensured the commutator and brushes were connecting correctly (the brushes still were more than 50% of their original length at 100k miles) put a small dab of copper grease on the bearing. Reinstalled the pump and it is now working as it should be.
    This bloke blew a maxi-fuse also. C5 Suspension Fault - Pump Maxi Fuse Blowing Fault Code P1351 - Problems and Fixes - C5 - Citroen Owners Club. The citroen cars forums

  7. #32
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    With the pump unit out of the vehicle, a little messy but pretty straightforward..
    With the backing plate removed from the motor, I was confronted with a 'fair' bit, not too much.. black oily grease.. as above.
    The brushes were long and looked quite ok. The messy oil seemed to thrown from the rear bearing, which is just a spigot in a brass bearing.. I think it has been off before and too much grease has been used on the bearing.
    The reason I think t has been off before, on top of the pump, under the oil reservoir there was 'markings' in pink.. like the wreckers use. Also some lines were not in their clips and the plastic wrapping around the electrical connections was broken and not made good..
    Soo.. maybe someone has replaced the pump and (over) greased the motor bearing at the same time?
    The motor was not wet with oil..
    The armiture could be rotated by hand, the pump was clearly free to spin.
    I would like to disassemble the motor for a though clean,
    but am unable to detach it from the pump.. seems to be a rubbery connection, possible a cush drive?.. any idea, I'll ask the UK guys as well.
    Also, the outer case on the motor is reluctant to just slide off.. seems to be held back by magnetism..? any ideas, should it just slide away, with maybe some small effort to overcome the internal magnets? Or is there a connection to the inside I wonder, for cleaning it all out..
    So I am fairly confident that a clean motor will run well and that the pump is ok.
    Last edited by Biker; 31st January 2018 at 07:57 PM.

  8. #33
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    So the freshly cleaned out motor and pump are back in the vehicle. The motor runs well, there are no fumes, from inner contamination, and the fuze does not heat up.. However, it is not pumping oil.. so that may alter the outcome thus far. I have raised the level via the position switch from lowest to mid.. but no go. I have 'blow' pressurized the tank, as in another thread, but no go, I have left it overnight to leak prime the pump, bu no go.
    So priming the pump is the issue at this point..
    By way of reporting back to contributors.

  9. #34
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    Any update on what was required to detach everything ? That might lead to diagnosis about why it's not working now.

    Cheers

    Justin
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    Quote Originally Posted by N5GTi6 View Post
    Any update on what was required to detach everything ? That might lead to diagnosis aboutD why it's not working now.

    Cheers
    The detachment process was pretty simple.. disconnect electrical connections / drain the oil from the tank / disconnect tank from pump / remove tank / remove pump unit... Installation by way of reverse procedure... This message does not want to post, It thinks it has less than 5 characters



    Justin
    The above

  11. #36
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    It's not uncommon for pumps to play up and be fussy about primming. They need something to pull against, otherwise, they just cavitate, spin their wheels, so to speak.. I'm surprised it's not a much better know issue, maybe it's not a common DIY project.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biker View Post
    ....snip.....I would like to disassemble the motor for a though clean,
    but am unable to detach it from the pump.. seems to be a rubbery connection, possible a cush drive?.. any idea, I'll ask the UK guys as well.
    Also, the outer case on the motor is reluctant to just slide off.. seems to be held back by magnetism..? any ideas, should it just slide away, with maybe some small effort to overcome the internal magnets? Or is there a connection to the inside I wonder, for cleaning it all out.......snip.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Biker View Post
    The above
    Sorry - I'll try and ask the question a bit more clearly - I was interested in what you did technically / physically to overcome the above mentioned issues ?

    Cheers

    Justin
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    '07 C3 Exclusive
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    Quote Originally Posted by N5GTi6 View Post
    Sorry - I'll try and ask the question a bit more clearly - I was interested in what you did technically / physically to overcome the above mentioned issues ?

    Cheers

    Justin
    I was unable to fully separate the motor from the pump, another fellow in UK also could not separate his. It moves away 2 / 3mm but after that it needs more pulling apart pressure than I was prepared to give .. since it was only for cleaning purposes, I left it, The same applied with the outer case of the motor, there was enough clearance to squirt cleaner and solvents etc into the motor and between the case and the rotating component that I didn't feel to force it apart, just a blast clean and blow dry. So nothing was done about issues mentioned... Update: Now that I have the pump primed, the motor is getting hot. The fuze is not. On my other X7 the motor does not get warm at all, so the motor is 'working too hard'.. I think not because the fuze is not hot.. Anyway, I have run out of oil, so after it's topped up and test driven I have more results to refer too.. any advice welcomed.

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    Update: With the system topped up with oil, and bleed it now rises and falls upon demand. However, heat is building up at the connection block attached to the electric motor and that heat is transferred to the motor. A clamp test reveals no more than 20amp pull so it's unlikely to be an electrical short. So I have the system working but not having located the source of the issue, it continues to be. Cost so far, $14 fuze and $35 oil. I will now once again remove the unit and try to locate the reason for the rapid rise in heat, too hot to touch.. am thinking a poor connection.

  15. #40
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    Davis S has raised the issue of an internal leak, causing the motor to run longer than it should.
    Am going to do comparison timing tests on my other similar modelled X7 that has no such issues.

    Am also wondering if my 'hot connection block' is maybe getting its heat from within the motor, the brush assembly..
    via unhappy workings at the segmented end, I didn't clean out the segments, they didn't seem to need it, but Hey..

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    New issue as per new to Citroen. Trying to conduct 'timing' tests as above..
    I note that the car I am using to test against, the one with no problems.. does not fully settle after the first door opening.
    I open the door, the elec motor runs for 6 seconds.
    I close the door, it stays raised at normal level.. I can not repeat the test.
    Questions:
    Upon exiting the car, how long is it mean to take to settle? (approx)
    Does it always settle?
    Is it mean to settle to fully LOW?

    UPDATE:
    The car with the hot motor: The pump runs when I open the door car being level or low for 50 secs.
    It runs again when I close the door, 35 secs.. the car does not move up or down.
    There may be a programming problem, that is 'overrunning' the motor.

    The system is well bleed, no air.

    My good car, behaviours differently, the pump does not run when I close the door, and only upon opening the door if it has sunk down, and then just a few 6 / 10 seconds.

    The hot unit has wreckers ink on it, so it is a used unit, maybe the ECU atop the unit is not matched to the car, not the original.. It may be the ECU from the donor car..

    If so, how would I rectify since the original ECU is gone.
    Also, What is the proper behaviour of the suspension door open or shut ? Over
    Last edited by Biker; 12th February 2018 at 07:05 PM.

  17. #42
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    You could really tempt fate and swap your pumps around and see the result..

    Sent from my LG-D802T using aussiefrogs mobile app
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidc View Post
    You could really tempt fate and swap your pumps around and see the result..

    Sent from my LG-D802T using aussiefrogs mobile app
    Yes I could swap over, but I'd rather leave the good one alone..

    Development:
    1: I have ordered a pump unit from the Wreckers..
    just to witness what happens on changeover... if it pumps faster or gets hot or what?

    2: Am seriously thinking to have fault codes checked, there has been a blown maxi fuze and battery changes that may have disturbed the main ECU and created 'faults' or 'errors' particularly in relation to suspension ht behaviour, not settling and the pump running for no apparent reason

    I want a clear system... via: Citroen Dealer
    Do members check their own faults with Lexia etc..?

    Information: It appears the module atop the pump is not Vin or Chassis number related.
    It should be interchangeable, is a solenoid driven valve body, driven by remote signals via ECU.
    Am still not 100% sure about that, being interchangeable?
    However, since my original pump module is missing, I hope the Wreckers module will work.

    Heat: It may be from pump overrun, due to worn pump not pushing the oil fast enough,
    therefore overheating and /or pump running when there is no need or purpose, another overrun situation both allowing heat build-up which may be correct for that situation.

    Therefore hopefully the Wreckers unit will be in working order and works
    on my car with its own pump module and not the original pump module.

    It does not settle once locked?
    So the system remains pressurised while locked. ?
    Must be a stuck valve in the pump or some electrical issue. ? which and why?

    Am expecting good results from the principle of the third element.
    Introducing an outside factor to influence the current situation.
    Last edited by Biker; 13th February 2018 at 08:52 PM.

  19. #44
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    Default Fault codes ?

    Hi Biker,
    To answer you question about fault codes and Lexia !
    The Lexia/diabox you can buy will do exactly what the dealer does as that is what he has. His should be up to date with all the latest downloads etc, but with older cars that is not important. So if you want to play then buy one !! Probably cheaper than a trip to the dealer.

    HOWEVER it is not for the fainthearted or the computer challenged to get it up and running on your laptop. It is a collection of crap programs loosely tied together with an obselete operating system. And you are buying a chinese clone from Ebay. Search on here for more information. It was called Lexia but has been updated to Diabox in lots of steps. Not sure if it needs a 32 bit windows system still on the laptop.

    When working it will enable you to run individual things for checking, and look at the real time operation, and real time faults etc etc. As well as look at the ECU log which has the historic data on faults and things stored since it was built. Even cleared ones I believe.
    Jaahn

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    Yes Johhn. As you read this am busy seeking to buy Lexia to clear my own faults and discover new ones..
    Once I seen how low price it was and understood the need it was clear to me that I would need one. Less than $200. I have an old Lappy with XP. Am seeking advice on a Lexia Version to buy
    ie: Version 7.67 or a full chip version with RevC..don't ask me.. ?? later I will know all.
    I will post a querie, some frog will know and help with the stuggle.
    So yes Jhanna you are just half a step in front, is still in front..
    I think my ECU would be full of faults with all the mucking about and blown fuze and different pump module to the original, another story.. I take all the advice I can bear you can give.. Youtube has great stuff but cannot understand a word of it? Over

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    If you haven't already you bought a lexia sign up to UK's frenchcarforum. Under the Announcement page there is notice about a discount offered by a mob that sells lexias and the pug equivalent. I purchased my lexia a while back through their website or eBay store can't remember. The after sales service is good too. I had a recent problem where my version wouldn't connect to the suspension ecu on either of my cars (which didn't help my current suspension problem). Anyway Lexia problem fixed with seller support.


    Sent from my LG-D802T using aussiefrogs mobile app
    Last edited by davidc; 17th February 2018 at 11:04 PM. Reason: De
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    Thank you Davidc,
    I will be ordering a Lexia from the UK it being fully capable with support if required, with the discount as mentioned.
    The Forum UK frenchcars has pages of similar type issues, Lexia, control systems, modules and configuration.
    Marc is checking out the BHI required for my VIN / Model
    Since my current BHI is a used replacement being both non-original/ model specific
    and more than likely, incompatible it will have to be replaced,
    motor and pump or just pump module is still not fully determined.
    After which I will have to find one to match. used I imagine.. ( note to self) cost a new one, who knows maybe it's not that much.
    After which I I will be able to configure the unit to my BSI using my new Lexia Diagbox.
    So it's good progress with a tricky diagnosis that is still not yet resolved but
    eventually will be. Over

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    As of now, it is still undetermined if a configuration is actually required since the height set by the pump unit (BSI) is independent and set by signals that originate from the height buttons in conjunction with the ht sensors..
    So a sticky/ faulty height sensor signal will keep the pump working, even though the height is set the pump overworks gets hot and blows the fuze.
    Or something like that.. I find it surprising that so little knowledge or understanding is available about a system so central to what a Citroen is. I would have to say that I am not all that much closer to solving this issue than when I first started and that most of the progress has been through newcomer logic and trial and error.

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