My 504... 4 cyl to a v6 and much much more... i hope
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Janek's Avatar
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    Icon2 My 504... 4 cyl to a v6 and much much more... i hope

    howdy all! my first post every on this wonderful forum!!!!

    have been reading the posts here non stop since i discovered it, only by chance, and i fell in love!

    Dave, youre a bloody champ, site is fantastic... discovered that about 2 years ago...

    Anyway, down to the meat and potatoes...

    First, the history... waaay back in 1978, my grandpa got this run down 1973 504 from his son (my uncle) as a birthday gift or some such... she had 2 cylinders working, had been badly mistreated, and needed some tlc... the engine was fixed, and ran no worries for over 20 years...

    age got the best of her, and the engine died... we have since replaced it, but there are so many little problems that are just annoying me, and i have wanted to for a long time fix her up and give the car the face lift it deserves...

    the crunch.... i have decided to do a full ground up restoration on it, removing all rust spots, giving it a well deserved strip and respray, and engine work... actually, was looking at the prv v6 a lot of folks talk about here...

    i am in the process of making a website of my progress, but at the moment have just taken the seats out and established that the wiring is held together by the preverbial bird droppings... the alternator doesnt want to charge for some reason, yadda yadda...

    sooo.. why im here?
    well im a fan of all things pug for one, and also, i need help... (am in sydney)

    i need to find all the parts i need.. and a reasonable price and condition, as well as new replacements... as i said, a prv v6 will be needed, as well as whatever gearbox and tailshaft suits (i think its a ba10 box, correct?)... any tips from anyone hwo has done this before, what do i need to look out for, any complications, etc? i'd prefer it to be petrol, not lpg or deisel, and have a fair bit of grunt... bang for the buck is a big issue, but not 100% neccessary... if i have to spend a bit more to get a bit more, not really a problem, as its probably a 2-5 year project...


    as for the body, almost immacculate, except along the door seals (rust) and inside, at the corners where the dash meets the body (rust again)... the paint job is peeling, cracked and scratched, and its two different colors (made friends witha ute, but no structural damage, panel was dented and brother decided to replace it.)

    so please, any experteise would be appreciated in this field, and will be posting photos if requested...

    site should be up june this year btw...

    Cheers all

    -Janek

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Pug_405_Mi16's Avatar
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    OK,

    One point I pick up straight away is that it's a '73.....correct me if i'm wrong but I think the tunnel size is to small for a BA10/5, I have always been led to understand that the BA10/5 will only fit the '75 on cars ?

    Anyway if i'm wrong all well and good!


    Ben
    1989 Peugeot 405 Mi16
    1990 Peugeot 505 GTD Turbo Wagon
    2000 Peugeot 306 XSI
    1973 Peugeot 504 GL





  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    See if you can find Bill Hamilton in the pccv (Pug car club vic), maybe via Rob Cherry. He has a twin turbo V6 in a 505, and a V6 in a 404 (from memory) so he will know I guess what goes into what.
    His name escapes me for the mo', but the guy who worked at Reno wreck in Keilor had a V8 in his 504. He may have some ideas too.

  4. #4
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Welcome Janek... I'm always glad to see another 504 fan!

    If it was me I wouldn't be converting it to a V6, for several reasons. An unmodified V6 doesn't perform like you might expect, only as well as a good 504 Ti (injection). With work of course the V6s can go very well, but this can be costly. V6s can be thirsty too. You might like to consider modifying the standard 504 engine. With a little work they can perform very nicely. I'm actually in the (slow) process of doing this to my car. However there are V6 fans on this forum so you'll no doubt get some different opinions.

    Good luck with the resto, keep us informed.

    John
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Janek's Avatar
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    yeah, have considered that, but was even in france and anything performance for the stock engine is very hard to find, and/or expensive... i wont be just droppinga v6 in as is anyway, the it will be worked, at least slightly...

    BUT, am not discarding the possibility either way...

    originally i wanted a v8, but i thought better of it, i want to keep the engine peugeot... although an sr20 would go down very nicely, but too much hastle

    thanks for the prompt replys guys, i have a feeling this is gonna go on for a while

    rust is looking a tad scary
    Last edited by Janek; 5th May 2004 at 11:10 PM. Reason: typos :-o

  6. #6
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    to fit a 10/5 in a 504 nicely you need an auto body 504 as they have a bigger tunnel

    the PRV V6 has a lot more torque then the 4 pot whether it be a carby or TI they also have from standard around 20hp more

    with a few little things like better breathing they perform very well

    i have had a multitude of TI's and driven quite a few carb 504's and have had the pleasure of converting a 504 to V6 and 5 spd and the best car by far was the V6 504

    it would run rings around every other 504 i had ever owned

    also once you pull the things off the V6 that aren't needed they aren't anywhere near as heavy as what they are when stuck in a 604

    grab a volvo engine with the injection system complete and clean the ports up a little

    the V6 also revs very well

    but i would suggest if you are going to go down the route to grab an auto 504 for the tunnel size and go from there

    the engine bolts straight in with the later cross member and 604 engine mounts

    run twin sway bars up front and drop it down to the ground a few inches and you have a car that you never want to hop out of

    why oh why did i ever sell mine
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! Janek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    grab a volvo engine with the injection system complete and clean the ports up a little
    ok, well how exactly and what exactly do i need to do this

    i dont actually have an auto 504 to work with, so i guess thats out, and whats the tunnel? (im not exactly a novice, but never heard of this before... sorry if it sounds dumb...)

    the main reason for the v6 is i want (and will later need) the extra torque... if i can pull off an auto 504 thats in good nick for very cheap, i can look into it, but the point was kind of to fix this one up... (or if any one of you has one just lying around... )

    as for using the volvo engine, i do want to keep it peugeot... ultimately, i want a v6 thats not really too much work to drop in, is easy to get up to speed, (and possibly pull some decent power out of), and something that will run and pull nicely in the end

    -Janek

  8. #8
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    The V6 is known as the PRV V6, for Peugeot/Renault/Volvo. It was jointly developed and used by each of the three manufacturers. The Volvo version is desirable because it has injection, but it's essentially the same engine as the 604 version and so will drop straight in to your 504. Peugeot didn't sell any injected V6s in Australia.

    "Tunnel" is the transmission tunnel, where the gearbox sits.

    John
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  9. #9
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    the volvo version is also a good one to get to try and save some of the last remaining 604's from dieing a sad death

    good 604's are getting very rare as will Mi-16's will as more and more people scrap them for 205 conversions

    volvos are plentiful

    in regards to the transmission tunnel, in the auto 504's the tunnel is bigger to allow for the auto box which is needed to put a BA10 in

    you can do it in a manual 504 body but the extra room form the auto tunnel does make things a lot easier

    when i built mine i had 2-3 bodies lying around to pick from and after trying everything in the manual body and then in the auto body the difference was very welcome
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    That's right... the tunnel size for the auto makes it easier, but not impossible. If you're doing body work anyway, and it's stripped down anyway, it won't be too hard to enlarge the section of the tunnel (along the left hand side of the box generally and perhaps the area around the reverse gear housing) that really needs clearance for the gearchange etc.

    I agree that the V6 is the way to go for ease of performance etc. The four is a nice enough engine and can be worked, however.

    If you go V6, there are other options, including LPG to make it more economical and to run better.

  11. #11
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    That's right... the tunnel size for the auto makes it easier, but not impossible. If you're doing body work anyway, and it's stripped down anyway, it won't be too hard to enlarge the section of the tunnel (along the left hand side of the box generally and perhaps the area around the reverse gear housing) that really needs clearance for the gearchange etc.

    I agree that the V6 is the way to go for ease of performance etc. The four is a nice enough engine and can be worked, however.

    If you go V6, there are other options, including LPG to make it more economical and to run better.

    the rear of the tunnel makes it easier but also the opening of the tunnel is bigger as well and it gives you plenty of room around the bell housing

    the reason to run injection is for the economy

    unless i was going as far as Mr C has with his turbo cars i wouldn't employ the thought of LPG on a V6

    they run just fine on that petrol stuff from the pump
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    Fellow Frogger! Janek's Avatar
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    okies, so the volvo v6 is sounding ok... how does it compare to everything else... and price wise, as well as ease of installation.. i have found a 604 already wrecked and the v6 twin carb engine is sitting on a shelf waiting to be sold.. complete with all bits minus gearbox etc... (for a handsome sum of $1250! )

    yeah, the car is apart now... everything that can be removed has been, minus the fvront suspension and rear, jsut so i can still roll it until i figure out a decent way of moving it without wheels... till june.

    eventually i probably will turbo it, and the whole speal, but for now ill need nice performance, hopefully economy, and again, ease of installation...

    what sort of modding will i need to do to fit in the ba10 in this one, hopefully nothing i'll need to get engineered

    another bonus of sticking to the good ole carb is its before the cutoff for emission controls, so power isnt really robbed, and its the hell of a lot easier to install and tinker with...

    if i do go down the volvo injected path, anyone know anyone/where is selling for cheap... also, there was talk with difficulties with the ba10/5 to the v6... any more info on that anyone?


    oooooo... while i remember... i dont know if i mentioned it, the wiring is pretty bad, and i want to redo the lot... anyone have any DECENT wiring diagrams, or will i just have to be super smart about it?

    cheers again

    -Janek

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Phil Whitton's Avatar
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    Default 504 bits

    Janek, I'll be breaking out a 79 diseasel which is badly rusted but if there is anything you are looking for , like a floor pan, tunnel etc let me know and I'll see what is there.
    Phil

  14. #14
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    The '79 diesel (presumably a manual...) will have the same tunnel as the car he's doing, which we are assuming is a manual but he hasn't actually told us yet.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janek
    okies, so the volvo v6 is sounding ok... how does it compare to everything else... and price wise, as well as ease of installation.. i have found a 604 already wrecked and the v6 twin carb engine is sitting on a shelf waiting to be sold.. complete with all bits minus gearbox etc... (for a handsome sum of $1250! )

    yeah, the car is apart now... everything that can be removed has been, minus the fvront suspension and rear, jsut so i can still roll it until i figure out a decent way of moving it without wheels... till june.

    eventually i probably will turbo it, and the whole speal, but for now ill need nice performance, hopefully economy, and again, ease of installation...

    what sort of modding will i need to do to fit in the ba10 in this one, hopefully nothing i'll need to get engineered

    another bonus of sticking to the good ole carb is its before the cutoff for emission controls, so power isnt really robbed, and its the hell of a lot easier to install and tinker with...

    if i do go down the volvo injected path, anyone know anyone/where is selling for cheap... also, there was talk with difficulties with the ba10/5 to the v6... any more info on that anyone?


    oooooo... while i remember... i dont know if i mentioned it, the wiring is pretty bad, and i want to redo the lot... anyone have any DECENT wiring diagrams, or will i just have to be super smart about it?

    cheers again

    -Janek

    $1250 for an engine ???

    i think you are better off to start looking through the trading post as i found a volvo not so long ago with a new engine but slight panel damage for $300

    you will onnly be needing a LH drive bell housing which are more common than the RH drive ones which a made from unobtanium

    you will also need a V6 gearbox

    either that or go down the jap route and put a supra box in there with a modified extension housing which has been done a couple of times now

    also for starters you can play with the original twin carb setup but the better carb route is the low comp inlet manifold with a 38 DGAS weber on board

    the benefit you also get with the volvo motor besides the injection is the electronic ignition but you will need to change the exhaust manifolds of which i am in the process of hunting around for either 605 or XM ones to put on another engine i have here but that is another story
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    French Car Care in Brisbane has a couple of the Renault 25 V6 Turbo motors lying around. Same basic motor but with a Turbo standard. I think nearly 200 Hp. He has had them for a while, but I don't know what he wants for them.
    '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
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    Fellow Frogger! Janek's Avatar
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    sounds good to me... can you find out how much he wants for them, and ill probably come up ad get them in early june... provided theyre complete, in reasonable nick, and the price is right

    oh yeah, the car is a manual, by the way... good guesses people!


    as for a gas set up, not too keen on that for several reasons... i like my boot the way it is, dont want to install any gas cylinders etc, and have always been a petrol man... high level turbos to get the same or better performance is not really the way i want to go, but im still undecided...

    as for a v6 box, i kinda figured that, but have been reading that people have put in the ba10/5's in, hence my original suggestion... supra boxes have always been good, but if i can, id like to get something that fits straight in no problemos...

    as for tailshaft/diff.. no one has made comments oin that... no problems there, im assuming?

    -Janek

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore
    French Car Care in Brisbane has a couple of the Renault 25 V6 Turbo motors lying around. Same basic motor but with a Turbo standard. I think nearly 200 Hp. He has had them for a while, but I don't know what he wants for them.
    You what??!!!!! Wow - do you know how complete they are, gearbox attached (I doubt it...) etc?
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  19. #19
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I'm sure the Renault engine has different bellhousing requirements... a different stud pattern on the back of the block.

    They probably do have boxes attached, they would surely have been bought as units from overseas.

    And you still haven't said whether or not the body you have is a manual, Janek...

  20. #20
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    I'm sure the Renault engine has different bellhousing requirements... a different stud pattern on the back of the block.

    They probably do have boxes attached, they would surely have been bought as units from overseas.

    And you still haven't said whether or not the body you have is a manual, Janek...

    oh yeah, the car is a manual, by the way... good guesses people!
    must be age catching up ray
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! Janek's Avatar
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    am in the works of looking for the engine, which is proving to be quite a chore, minus the 1250 one, whick im not going to spend that much and just have to rebuild it!

    in any case, looks like ill be looking for a while!

    on the gearbox not eagain, i just had a squiz under the hood, and it looks as though theres plenty of clearence in the tunnel... about 2 inches i say.

    i guess i really wont know until i ty it out... also, someone mentioned 604 cross members... straight change from the 504 one? no problemos at all? i want to get this researched and planned out as much as i can before i start working on it and hit a brick wall..

    by the way, the yellow 504 sounds awesome, and looks great! (downloaded the video) any hints or tricks i should know about!!!

    -Janek
    Last edited by Janek; 6th May 2004 at 04:26 PM. Reason: didnt read post before :P

  22. #22
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    you don't need a 604 cross member just a cross member from a 75 or later 504 will do the job

    but as you may know you will need the 604 engine mounts
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janek
    am in the works of looking for the engine, which is proving to be quite a chore, minus the 1250 one, whick im not going to spend that much and just have to rebuild it!

    in any case, looks like ill be looking for a while!

    on the gearbox not eagain, i just had a squiz under the hood, and it looks as though theres plenty of clearence in the tunnel... about 2 inches i say.

    i guess i really wont know until i ty it out... also, someone mentioned 604 cross members... straight change from the 504 one? no problemos at all? i want to get this researched and planned out as much as i can before i start working on it and hit a brick wall..

    by the way, the yellow 504 sounds awesome, and looks great! (downloaded the video) any hints or tricks i should know about!!!

    -Janek

    V6 engines are around $100 from Pick a Part here in Melbourne. Fresh cars arriving every week, including 760s (odd fire only, so far).
    Is the 1250 dollar motor fully imported? All local cars were subject to pollution control.

    Graham Wallis

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! 604 tragic's Avatar
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    Default get a donor 604

    Quote Originally Posted by Janek
    as for a v6 box,..................

    as for tailshaft/diff.. no one has made comments oin that... no problems there, im assuming?

    -Janek
    Welcome to the frog pond Janek

    If you look around you should be able to get a 'donor' 604 for nearly nothing!!

    You will be amazed at how much of the 604 mechanicals bolt straight into a 504. The whole drivetrain - Eng Gbox Ttube & diff. You also get the crossmember brakes (+ backend??). so you dont have to worry about things like exhaust starter motor or radiators as you will have them.

    Sadly 604s suffer terminal rust (& most 504s dont) so you may find a rusty one with good mechs. Suggest perhaps you do an EASY conversion, with a standard auto (GM trimatic) and standard v6 FIRST - and then gather the hard to find bits like manual bellhousings and weber manifolds as they pop up. I had a UK import v6 engine without any emission stuff and it was soooo different, it would have been magic in a 504.

    Good luck
    So many projects - so little time.

  25. #25
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 604 tragic
    Welcome to the frog pond Janek

    If you look around you should be able to get a 'donor' 604 for nearly nothing!!

    You will be amazed at how much of the 604 mechanicals bolt straight into a 504. The whole drivetrain - Eng Gbox Ttube & diff. You also get the crossmember brakes (+ backend??). so you dont have to worry about things like exhaust starter motor or radiators as you will have them.

    Sadly 604s suffer terminal rust (& most 504s dont) so you may find a rusty one with good mechs. Suggest perhaps you do an EASY conversion, with a standard auto (GM trimatic) and standard v6 FIRST - and then gather the hard to find bits like manual bellhousings and weber manifolds as they pop up. I had a UK import v6 engine without any emission stuff and it was soooo different, it would have been magic in a 504.

    Good luck
    that's ok getting a 604 that has terminal rust but what gets me are the 604's that are picked up for a few hundred dollars with next to nothing wrong with them that get scrapped

    volvos are plentiful and cheap

    to put the V6 and auto in you can use the 504 tube and shaft and use a holden 253 radiator

    autos are more plentiful than cheap 604's so you have no worries in that area

    lets try and keep some 604's on the roads is what i am saying

    the last one i bought for an undisclosed amount was a damn good buy but i'd say if someone else got it it would have been stripped down and parted out

    off the top of your head when was the last time you saw a 604 driving down the road other than at a club event ??

    then think back to the late 70's early 80's and how many did you used to see then ?

    there is a big difference between then and now

    also when you go to a club day how many 604's are seen there as compared to years gone by

    strip the volvos and keep the pugs going
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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