406 Coupe engine replacement - top or bottom?
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Thread: 406 Coupe engine replacement - top or bottom?

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    Fellow Frogger! racing405's Avatar
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    Default 406 Coupe engine replacement - top or bottom?

    Regulars here may remember I bought a 406 manual coupe here months back. I have just put the water pump and new timing belt on the donor engine and started looking at removing the dead unit.

    So - those who have done it before, engine out the top or out the bottom?

    I now have a hoist, so the car can come off the engine if that's the best way to do it...

    Neither way looks like a walk in the park.

    Hope to get some decent advice soonish, can't even find a youtube clip to laugh at.

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    racing 405
    1:59:09 last time at Phillip Island - less than standard Mi16.

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    send a pm to Demannu, he knows for sure!
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    1000+ Posts cav91's Avatar
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    Out the bottom. Engine k-frame comes off very easily. All in all took me a couple of days to swap a motor over on my mates manual coupe. Not that hard just fiddly

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Demannu removed his engine and gearbox together out the top using an engine crane. I was there when he put a different one back in. Didn't seem too difficult. But I don't think he would have been able to do it from the top if he was just replacing the engine only. From the top, the engine and gearbox need to be shoehorned in together as a single unit. Maybe they don't HAVE to be.... but preferably.

    He didn't have a hoist.

    Racing405....have you replaced the timing belt idler pulleys ? Because Demannu's pulleys later seized up.
    Last edited by Beano; 1st December 2017 at 07:42 PM.

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    Fellow Frogger! racing405's Avatar
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    Yup, ready for another 80,000km. Also did the front and rear crank seals, cam seals and looking at re-sealing the tappet covers... a bit of oil around the top end.
    racing 405
    1:59:09 last time at Phillip Island - less than standard Mi16.

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    Fellow Frogger! racing405's Avatar
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    Getting a new clutch while we're at it too.
    racing 405
    1:59:09 last time at Phillip Island - less than standard Mi16.

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Good luck fitting that clutch.

    Being a 504 and 505 man, I had never even heard of the type of clutch in the 406 until I saw one being lined up. They don't have an actuating lever which pushes like on earlier cars. It pulls, instead.

    Demannu used a fibre optic scope to check if it had been lined up properly when he fitted gearbox to engine.

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    1000+ Posts N5GTi6's Avatar
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    GTi6 is a pull type as well. With the engine out of the car it should be a piece of cake. Trick is to remove the pivot pin bush from the top and replace it once the clutch fork slides back in behind the release bearing when you slide the gearbox back onto the engine. Removing the plastic bush gives you more room to move the pivot pin and release lever sideways.

    Cheers

    Justin
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    Fellow Frogger! racing405's Avatar
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    Well I think it should have been out the bottom. it is a dead set prick to get at the centre bearing on the long drive shaft with the exhaust in place, and almost impossible to remove the exhaust with everything else still bolted in. Never mind - have it just about ready to lift out.
    racing 405
    1:59:09 last time at Phillip Island - less than standard Mi16.

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    Racing405....have you replaced the timing belt idler pulleys ? Because Demannu's pulleys later seized up.
    Yeah, and that was only about 8 months and 11,000km old. I was not a happy camper.
    Scotty

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by racing405 View Post
    Yup, ready for another 80,000km. Also did the front and rear crank seals, cam seals and looking at re-sealing the tappet covers... a bit of oil around the top end.
    Ben, these motors leak from between the cam box and the cover, but also between the cam box and the head. You need to remove the camshafts to reseal the cam box to head joint.

    There is no seal in here from factory, just a machined finish. 20 years of heat cycles, and everything has changed shape a little, and you get a constant seep.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

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    A terrible heavy thing to use, the best clutch is the S1 Mi16.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    Good luck fitting that clutch.

    Being a 504 and 505 man, I had never even heard of the type of clutch in the 406 until I saw one being lined up. They don't have an actuating lever which pushes like on earlier cars. It pulls, instead.

    Demannu used a fibre optic scope to check if it had been lined up properly when he fitted gearbox to engine.

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    A terrible heavy thing to use, the best clutch is the S1 Mi16.
    In my experience, the cable operated pull-type clutches used in late 405s, 306s, 406s etc are pretty awful. But the hydraulically actuated clutches in the V6 and diesel models are delightful.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    With plastic cylinders that you can't buy replacements for, unless things have changed in the past few years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    In my experience, the cable operated pull-type clutches used in late 405s, 306s, 406s etc are pretty awful. But the hydraulically actuated clutches in the V6 and diesel models are delightful.

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    ^ It would be interesting to find out if those plastic cylinders are identical...... or almost identical and therefore amenable to alteration.....to metal ones in some other model.
    It's amazing what you can find out there sometimes. Manufacturers don't always make parts which are unique to one car. They share them around....it's cheaper. But they don't always reveal what is shared with what.

    The way to find out might be to make enquiries on different forums overseas.....like Argentina, perhaps, where some innovative guys like Molerpa (what happened to him, anyway ? ) are putting a lot of time and effort into keeping older cars on the road.

    Or perhaps....and a lot easier..... take a used one to some old, very experienced guy in a place here that re-sleeves them, and ask if it looks like anything else. These guys know that kind of stuff inside-out.....it's their daily job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    In my experience, the cable operated pull-type clutches used in late 405s, 306s, 406s etc are pretty awful. But the hydraulically actuated clutches in the V6 and diesel models are delightful.
    Yes and your signature should also reflect the 306 cab, nes't pas?
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    1000+ Posts cav91's Avatar
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    To be honest I wouldn't bother. My 406 is now over 406 thousand kms. Never had an issue with the hydraulics for the clutch. The thrust bearing is now a bit noisey. Buts it's original. Best car I've ever owned, so reliable and great fun. (I bet I've jinxed it now)!

    Gave it a test this arvo... yep still works.
    Last edited by cav91; 20th December 2017 at 09:23 PM.
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    Fellow Frogger! racing405's Avatar
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    So on the advice of Demmanu I have lifted the cam boxes and re-sealed between cam and head. What a prick of a job. Wouldn't have been so bad if all original, but someone has wrecked 7 of the M6 threads that hold down the cam covers and while they were at it stuck the cam covers down with heaps and heaps of blue silicon. Took me hours to remove them and clean up the mess, fix the threads before I got back to square one. Glad I don't have to do that every day.
    racing 405
    1:59:09 last time at Phillip Island - less than standard Mi16.

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    Fellow Frogger! racing405's Avatar
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    Man, is it even legal to tow something as heavy as that with the 406? If so, I may need to put a tow bar on the coupe and tow the 306 around!
    racing 405
    1:59:09 last time at Phillip Island - less than standard Mi16.

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by racing405 View Post
    So on the advice of Demmanu I have lifted the cam boxes and re-sealed between cam and head. What a prick of a job. Wouldn't have been so bad if all original, but someone has wrecked 7 of the M6 threads that hold down the cam covers and while they were at it stuck the cam covers down with heaps and heaps of blue silicon. Took me hours to remove them and clean up the mess, fix the threads before I got back to square one. Glad I don't have to do that every day.
    I yes, I probably should have warned you about that. In my previous engine (current one amazingly was intact) I ended up installing about 20 helicoils. It had previously been butchered, and there was no hope of getting the correct torque (very important!) on the cam boxes screws.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by racing405 View Post
    Man, is it even legal to tow something as heavy as that with the 406? If so, I may need to put a tow bar on the coupe and tow the 306 around!
    Nope, of course not. Max towing capacity of a 406 is 1500kg braked. Hayman Reese towbars for 406s in Australia are only rated to 1200kg. Maximum ball weight of 80kg, which in Australia practically limits you to 800kg max towing weight.

    A 505 wagon as pictured is around 1400kg, and I don't think there's much chance that that trailer weighs less than 100kg
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Fellow Frogger! racing405's Avatar
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    Well Beano and others who warned of clutch fitment challenges, this is far from the worst clutch I've had to fit. Eye ball the clutch onto centre as you torque up the cover bolts, pull the fork shaft out, hand the fork on the thrust bearing and away you go - piece of cake really. From 4 bits laying on the floor of the shed to a combined motor gearbox assembly in less than 15 minutes.

    Engine back in tonight with all the ancillary bits on (alternator, power steer, air con). Just waiting for the top engine mount to arrive and then we can finish up.
    racing 405
    1:59:09 last time at Phillip Island - less than standard Mi16.

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    1000+ Posts cav91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by racing405 View Post
    Man, is it even legal to tow something as heavy as that with the 406? If so, I may need to put a tow bar on the coupe and tow the 306 around!
    This load, probably not but that tandem is very light. Only weighs 500 kgs! However the 406 is probably the best tow car we've ever used. It's towed countless cars across the state. Even went to Adelaide on boxing day with car on float! It's towed 3 cars on the trailer within the last 3 weeks. Never misses a beat and never had a problem not even unwanted attention. Best part is it will still comfortably sit on the speed limit and accelate with traffic flow. This ones also rather low and firm so doesnt drop its bum much with a load. A v6 406 as tow car a bit unorthordox but I'd recommend one.
    406 D8 V6 manual

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    Fellow Frogger! racing405's Avatar
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    Only joking really. My tow car is a 4L petrol turbo territory. For all the cars and 4wds I've owned, the all wheel drive turbo territory is by far the best tow car I've come across. Better fuel economy than any of the V8s I've owned. Puts 247kW on the road and delivers about 500Nm torque. Can't argue with that. I am very glad I didn't buy the Territory new, I'd be disappointed by the rattles and cheap interior.
    racing 405
    1:59:09 last time at Phillip Island - less than standard Mi16.

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    I have been towing 205s around with a 400kg single axle trailer behind 405 SRis. Quite OK but would be better with Mi16 rear suspension and gearbox I don't think the Mi16 engine would be suitable though. I don't do it at the moment as my present 405 is auto and there was too much slip on starting.
    Chris, are you open at the moment, I need a pair of early Berlingo torsion bars.

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