The prototype supercharged twin engine (one a V4) they tried in '67
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Thread: The prototype supercharged twin engine (one a V4) they tried in '67

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    Fellow Frogger! Lasya's Avatar
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    Default The prototype supercharged twin engine (one a V4) they tried in '67

    Does anyone know of any threads here, or on the 'net (car clubs or not) with photo's and info on this trial? I'm fascinated not just with the tech aspect, but the the why's too. i.e. why they entertained it and then why it never worked well enough...

    I've contacted the Conservatoire, with not too much luck.

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    Thanks in advance.
    Gillian and Chris

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    Oh, and a Holden.

    Lasya, Tibetan goddess of the moon and beauty who carries a mirror.

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    I had an old motor magazine from about that era ,had an article about a two stroke multi cylinder engine being developed by sarich in wa ,it used ceramic pistons and was a lot lighter than a conventional engine of the same output ,the fuel was injected into the cylinders with compressed air ,they had it fitted in a small chrysler car ,were raving about its fuel saving etc ,.never heard anything more ,possibly bought out by a petroleum company .i,can see if i can find it ,pugs

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    Ford bought into the Sarich orbital engine and things looked very promising
    for a while, with Ford in Europe, I think, building a nifty little sports car prototype.
    but then all the hype came to nought. why, I don't know, maybe pollution regs.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    The design of the engine makes it difficult to cool and lubricate.

    I remember Phil Irving at the LCCA giving a talk on the technicalities of why it was not a practical commercial proposition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    The design of the engine makes it difficult to cool and lubricate.

    I remember Phil Irving at the LCCA giving a talk on the technicalities of why it was not a practical commercial proposition.
    Is there anyway I can contact Phil? email etc?
    Gillian and Chris

    74 D Special, and now a 74 Pallas 23 5 speed with air(maybe). And now a Cactus!

    Oh, and a Holden.

    Lasya, Tibetan goddess of the moon and beauty who carries a mirror.

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    Fellow Frogger! lozenge's Avatar
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    the great Phil Irving died in 1992.

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    Fellow Frogger! Lasya's Avatar
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    Oh. Thanks.
    Gillian and Chris

    74 D Special, and now a 74 Pallas 23 5 speed with air(maybe). And now a Cactus!

    Oh, and a Holden.

    Lasya, Tibetan goddess of the moon and beauty who carries a mirror.

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    How can I put this with out raising expectations?
    We are into "I know a friend of a friend" sort of territory.
    And I'm not sure how Peter is traveling, but he did come up in conversation last week.
    He was a colleague of mine before he retired.
    Peter worked at Repco in some capacity with a V8 that may have been sourced from Peugeot parts if I recall correctly.
    I think that he worked with Phil but I'm not positive on this point.

    I would be only too happy to get in contact with Peter via my friends .
    He is such a great bloke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasya View Post
    Is there anyway I can contact Phil? email etc?
    You'll need a Ouija board!

    Phil Irving gave a talk in Adelaide many years ago and was asked the same question about the future of the Wankel engine. His answer was "oblivion". He wasn't completely correct but very nearly. I was told that he reckoned we'd spent 100 years trying to seal round pistons in round holes, and that sealing corners seemed an issue to him....

    I recall discussing the Sarich engine at the time BHP bought into it (and made Ralph Sarich rather wealthy, money which he put into Perth real estate if I recall). The mechanical engineering view I heard was that it simply couldn't be scaled up to transmit more power effectively because of its layout and dimensions. Heaven knows, but the Renault 15/17 that Renault Australia contributed never ran with one in it that I ever heard of.

    What the Sarich research group did develop, funded by BHP, and apropos that 2-stroke comment above, was a nifty fuel injection system that was used on, I think, Mercury outboard motors, under license. That system made money I think and was used quite a lot.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    How can I put this with out raising expectations?
    We are into "I know a friend of a friend" sort of territory.
    And I'm not sure how Peter is traveling, but he did come up in conversation last week.
    He was a colleague of mine before he retired.
    Peter worked at Repco in some capacity with a V8 that may have been sourced from Peugeot parts if I recall correctly.
    I think that he worked with Phil but I'm not positive on this point.

    I would be only too happy to get in contact with Peter via my friends .
    He is such a great bloke.
    Rolloy Pistons (then closely allied to Repco) foundry manager, Jim Hawker, now passed, built a Peugeot V8 out of two 203 blocks on a custom crankcase.

    It's discussed in detail here : Peugeot V8

    I believe this is engine you speak of. My understanding is Phil (also working with Repco, at the time) questioned his ability to build the engine.

    The engine was put into a 403, removed from the production line, custom modified to gain some space in the engine bay and then returned to the production line for painting and trim.

    Jim lived close to us, until his death about 5-7 years ago. His house has been sold and the site now boasts a new house.
    Last edited by robmac; 24th May 2017 at 10:30 PM.

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    Default What the hell are you asking about ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Lasya View Post
    Does anyone know of any threads here, or on the 'net (car clubs or not) with photo's and info on this trial? I'm fascinated not just with the tech aspect, but the the why's too. i.e. why they entertained it and then why it never worked well enough...
    I've contacted the Conservatoire, with not too much luck.
    Thanks in advance.
    Hi Lasya
    I must be a bit thick but I have no idea what trial or engine you are thinking about. Some people seem to drift off to the Sarich saga. But V4 seem to be poor fit there Peugeot cropped up ! NO. Should I mention Ford ??

    Like to mention a brand or manufacturer to get everyone on the same page and some rough date
    OH I see '67 in the title now !
    Jaahn

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    The engine in the motor mag, was a piston engine ,not a rotary as commonly associated with sarich ,i will try and find it i have a lot of old mags ,my wife is away for the next 2 days so am free to make a mess ,the thing that got me at the time was that it was a piston engine and that the fuel and air were injected into the engine ,so the fuel is vaporised, ,by the high pressure of the air ,if all the air is injected ,the ecu could ,control the fuel air ratio with reference to the oxygen sensor in the exhaust .i dont know if the air was compressed by a engine driven compressor ,and how much power it would consumed ,or possibly an on board tank that could be pumped up at home ,then supplemented by the engine ,extra weight and limited range could be just a few issues, pugs

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    I found it modern motor sept 87, 3 cylinder 2 stroke engine weighing 41kg and producing 67kw ,apparently fitted to small cars supplied by gm and ford road and dyno tested in perth w.a article by pedr davis pictures of this engine fitted in a chev spectrum ,mechanic with the engine under his arm sitting on his hip ,says [quote the direct fuel-injection is a two-fluid system which works like a sophisticated gun for spray painting, fuel is blasted into the combustion chamber by compressed air delivered by a small compressor at the front of the engine ] end quote . Dont get the two fluid bit ,,the crankcase is lubricated as in a 4 stroke , as in a 2 stroke diesel ,i dont know how to scan and post it here , or if there are copyright issues ,pugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by pugwash View Post
    I found it modern motor sept 87, 3 cylinder 2 stroke engine weighing 41kg and producing 67kw ,apparently fitted to small cars supplied by gm and ford road and dyno tested in perth w.a article by pedr davis pictures of this engine fitted in a chev spectrum ,mechanic with the engine under his arm sitting on his hip ,says [quote the direct fuel-injection is a two-fluid system which works like a sophisticated gun for spray painting, fuel is blasted into the combustion chamber by compressed air delivered by a small compressor at the front of the engine ] end quote . Dont get the two fluid bit ,,the crankcase is lubricated as in a 4 stroke , as in a 2 stroke diesel ,i dont know how to scan and post it here , or if there are copyright issues ,pugs
    I wonder if that was the system that Mercury adopted for its outboards? Was the 3-cylinder 2-stroke a Mercury for that matter? Just a niggle in the back of my memory.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    Yess it says here that there was a licencing agreement with mercury marine and outboard marine corporation ,and that sarich has entered into a joint venture with walbro corporation in michigan who will make the orbital injection system for for use in automotive and marine use .im about to google it to see if i can bring up this article on line ,pugs

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    Pedr davis wrote a book about sarich and his engines in 89/90 its available from a list of libraries and also on line, pugs

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    There were a number of experimental cars going around Perth in those days with various Sarich innovations fitted, I believe. They were sign written to that effect, from memory. As John alluded to, I think these were mainly the fuel injection test beds.

    I bought shares in a company, Barrack Technologies, in the same era or a little later which boasted it had fuel injection tech which was better than the current systems. I did make money, but the company disappeared.


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