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  1. #1
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    Default 1956 daily driver..

    G'day all.

    I'm thinking of installing a thermo fan at the front of my Fregate radiator so I can use it as a daily driver whenever the fancy takes me. The traffic can get a bit ridiculous in the afternoon peak so an extra fan is a must, trouble is I might not have enough alternator output to run it, I think I have 35 amps. If I were running a demister and lights as well there would be a problem.

    I'm thinking I'll make it operable from a manual switch, any comments on how best to go about this process..?



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    Last edited by 59 Floride; 17th February 2017 at 10:15 AM.

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Automatic temperature switching every time. A manual override switch can fitted for the one's without faith.

    And a single supercheap 300mm diameter fan , behind the radiator will adequately cool the engine.

    The only mod needed to the radiator will be solder a mounting ferrule in the bottom tank to accept a thermo switch.

    And of course some wiring and a relay for fan motor.

    If you used the Holden alternator alternator, Bosch K1 14-85 you have 85 amps available whilst the car is at driving revs and 14amps whilst the engine at idle. More than enough capacity to run a single 300mm fan.
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    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    G'day Rob,

    I'm using one of these from a Magna, do you recognise it? 35amps?

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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    If you speak to JohnW, I seem to recall he did an alternator upgrade and there was a thread on it from memory.
    I'm pretty sure the Holden alternator option came up then?
    KB


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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    G'day Rob,

    I'm using one of these from a Magna, do you recognise it? 35amps?

    Read the number on the back... K1 =model, > = rotation direction, first figure is current at 1500 rpm shaft speed, second number is current at 4000 (?) shaft speed. IE K1> 14 85 for the Holden unit.

    35 amps seems a very low figure for a modern alternator.
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    COL
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    I'm running the standard 35 Amp alternator on my R12 with a thermo fan and I have no problems with the battery draining.

    Do a calculation of all the electrical gear that you may have running at one time when you will need the fan to come on.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1995 Renault Laguna V6
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    1973 Alpine A110

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    I'm running the standard 35 Amp alternator on my R12 with a thermo fan and I have no problems with the battery draining.

    Do a calculation of all the electrical gear that you may have running at one time when you will need the fan to come on.

    And how much "crawling" you intend to do in slow traffic. The choice of alternator capacity is arrived at by how often and for how long you are able to charge battery, which supplies the current during the time the alternator has not been fully supporting the load.

    You also need to factor in other loads, like headlights.

    In an older cars, with very few major electrical loads you are unlikely to have a problem.

    In modern cars, with electric everything , it is a big issue.

    Hence the change to claw pole alternators, with better low revs v current outputs. Typically 50% of max output at idle. Compared to 15% of a conventional compact claw alternators.
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    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    G'day Col and others.

    Basically my electrical demands would be the same as most old Renaults because I have the same heater fan as has been used in the Floride/Caravells etc. My wiper motor is from an R10, stop lights and indicators, meh!, same ol.

    But it has just occurred to me that my old longstroke 2141 cc Etendard motor revs and idles slower than the more modern Sierra motors, therefor I will need to look more closely at my alternator speed and eventual output. I've noticed that when at idle with the headlights, indicators and brake light on, the horn struggles to blare, so maybe my alternator is too slow in the current setup. First I'd need to buy a decent multimeter to replace my Supercheap cheapy so I can be more certain where I'm at with voltages.

    Rob, I'm not too keen on tampering with my radiator bottom tank to install a sensor, can I put it somewhere else..?

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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    alternator speed can be altered with changing pulley diameter too.
    Re the sensor, is there anywhere you could cut a hose and install a sleeve with sensor mount included?
    I've seen people run the sensor under a clamp at the end of a hose but it seems a high probability of a leak I would have thought.
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    KB


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    COL
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    Could use something like this for the sensor, just need to cut a small piece out of the radiator hose.

    sensor adapter | eBay
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    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1995 Renault Laguna V6
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    You may be better with a compact claw alternator, ie the "squat" devices, but physical mounting can be an issue.

    Even running at a such a low speed, you are unlikely to have charge issues. Could you fit a smaller diameter pulley to the alternator ? Probably not in my experience.

    You can get a bodgey thermo switch system that you poke in the hose and clamps a rubber wedge with the hose clip inside the hose.

    It will probably look worse than a discrete switch in the bottom of the radiator.

    I've seen hoses cut and a piece of pipe with a temperature switch installed used. But that looks more unoriginal.

    Can you install in the bottom of the radiator bottom tank, perhaps ?
    Last edited by robmac; 17th February 2017 at 01:17 PM.
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    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    Rob, here are two immediate possibilities for places to install a sensor, in the radiator tap hole or in the heater hose junction, if they will fit. Failing that I will just take it to my radiator dude to install a spigot, I don't really want to tamper with a pristine radiator myself.



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    Last edited by 59 Floride; 17th February 2017 at 01:24 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    alternator speed can be altered with changing pulley diameter too.
    Re the sensor, is there anywhere you could cut a hose and install a sleeve with sensor mount included?
    I've seen people run the sensor under a clamp at the end of a hose but it seems a high probability of a leak I would have thought.
    Thanks KB, yes I am aware that I can change speed with the pulley, and to be honest, I just fitted what I had on hand at the time. Some more investigation needed there methink.

    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Could use something like this for the sensor, just need to cut a small piece out of the radiator hose.

    sensor adapter | eBay
    Col, thanks, I could use one of these in-line sensors in the heater hose branch probably.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    You are likely to be constrained by the physical shape and thread of the thermo switch.

    The best place for most reliable sensing is the middle of the bottom tank.

    You also need to match the turn on and turn off temperature of the sensor to the temperature range of your thermostat.

    For example the Peugeot 404/504 fan switch, located in the bottom tank, ideal running temp 176 F, cuts in at around 185 F and out at around 170 F.

    If you chose another sensor location, the switch temperatures may need to different. And you can't predict what will be needed.

    Have a look here for available switches: Thermo Fan Switches | Tridon
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    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    Yep! I'm pretty sure none of those will fit in my tap hole so it will be off to the radiator expert when the time comes.
    Thermo Fan Switches | Tridon
    Last edited by 59 Floride; 17th February 2017 at 09:47 PM.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    You will find the EL falcon fans pull far to much current. THey are the "standard" hotrodders fan unit by the sounds of it, and apparently move vast amounts of air ( even compared to the expensive fancy after market fans). I fitted a set to the V8 range rover I have. Using a 40amp circuit breaker. First warm day towing the caravan and I had no bloody fans in the middle of geelong... The bloody circuit breaker ( damn there EVIL pieces of shit for failing when you need them the most) kept tripping. They must massively derate with underbonnet heat.

    I have since rewired it all with 50amp maxi fuses.

    Oh, and if you have **any** sort of thermo switch in there ..... Eg: one in the radiator, I found the binary switch screwed out of the thermostat housing in the range rover ... allowing me to screw in the Citroen CX trinary switch. So I wired the fans series/parallel.... ie: the shitty old range rover has low speed (series fans) at about 86degrees, and (high speed) parallel fans 92degrees.

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    I've had the temperature gauge sensor in the R8 top hose for 40 years without the slightest problem. It's an old Smiths fitting with a female thread to screw the sensor (or a string of adaptors...) into. They work well and don't leak, nor do they need overtightening..... I think I'm on my third replacement hose since 1973, all changed as a precaution, with no sign of failure but rather "starting to look a bit tired".
    JohnW

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    https://daviescraig.com.au/switches-controllers

    I was thinking of the "mechanical version"


    Good luck getting a smith's hose sensor kit. They would like rocking horse poo today. I'd think. I haven't seem them since early 70's.
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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    G'day Rob,

    I'm using one of these from a Magna, do you recognise it? 35amps?

    Yeah, we've seen that pic in a thread about alternator upgrades before. Last time it was about a Floride
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    KB


  20. #20
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    And your point is...?

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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Having read the thread robmac linked, I do recognise it!!
    KB


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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Given 59 Floride's skills, he'd knock up a hose sensor kit before breakfast.
    JohnW

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  23. #23
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    Having read the thread robmac linked, I do recognise it!!
    Nice work Sherlock, you are quite right, the first pic was from the alternator I fitted to my Floride, 'twas the only picture I had on hand.

    This however, is from my Fregate and they are essentially identical. If you look through your detectives eye glass you will note that it is indeed 85 amps. So that ticks one box, now I just have to sort out a sensor, before breakfast apparently.

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    Last edited by 59 Floride; 17th February 2017 at 10:31 PM.
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  24. #24
    COL
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    Looks like you have lots of power in reserve so I would be getting rid of the engine driven fan and buying the biggest thermo fan that fits between the radiator and motor. The suck through is more efficient than the blow through.

    With this configuration you will have more power when the fan is not in use, and most likely better cooling at those low traffic speeds.
    jaahn likes this.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1995 Renault Laguna V6
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

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  25. #25
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    Thanks Col, I have seen that arrangement on hot rods and it doesn't look offensive at all, I'm not running a museum piece after all.

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