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Thread: Oils aint Oils

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Oils aint Oils

    As I was checking on the best transmission fluid to use in my ZRE 152 (08) Corolla (not French but interesting anyhow) I came up with this !

    Toyota specify ATF WS (world standard)

    According to the author it appears to be a money saving exercise on environmental tax fees!

    Pondering whether something like this with the "Sealed for Life" and magic Esso ATF fluid could be behind PSA thinking for the infamous AL4 tranny ???

    https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/...on-now.331521/

    Will use Penrite ATF LV fully syn. as originally thinking !

    Alain

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    As I was checking on the best transmission fluid to use in my ZRE 152 (08) Corolla (not French but interesting anyhow) I came up with this !

    Toyota specify ATF WS (world standard)

    According to the author it appears to be a money saving exercise on environmental tax fees!

    Pondering whether something like this with the "Sealed for Life" and magic Esso ATF fluid could be behind PSA thinking for the infamous AL4 tranny ???

    https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/...on-now.331521/

    Alain
    Penrite Fully Synthetic trans fluid works just fine.

    And as a replacement for Toyota type IV "gold impregnated" trans fluid as well.
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    Ok, I'm ready now.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Oils aint Oils-img_0306.jpg  
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    Oily story.

    A couple of weeks ago Repco had a 30% off engine oils sale. I ripped down to get some 0w - 20 fully synthetic for the "Boss's" Honda.

    Took my Seniors card, NRMA,CAMS card and car club cards.

    5L of top brand 0w - 20 fully synthetic $86!

    Drove down to Trivett spares Rydalmere. 5L 0w - 20 Honda fully synthetic + genuine filter + new aluminium plug washer $81.53 (GST included)!!??

    Who is ripping who off?
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    Hi
    Seeing as the popcorn set has got ready
    I doubt that 0w-20 is a suitable oil for anything in Australia. How often does it snow where you are ??? On the other hand how often does it get to 40 deg? More often than I like here now !!
    Stuff the fuel economy IMHO and go for something with a bit of substance.
    Jaahn

  6. #6
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    I say it's got nothing to do with the snow and everything to do with engine tech ie. VVT, etc.
    Regards,

    Simon

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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts BIGRR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi
    Seeing as the popcorn set has got ready
    I doubt that 0w-20 is a suitable oil for anything in Australia. How often does it snow where you are ??? On the other hand how often does it get to 40 deg? More often than I like here now !!
    Stuff the fuel economy IMHO and go for something with a bit of substance.
    Jaahn
    Tend to agree, however 0w-20 is what all modern Hondas run on. And being the "Boss's" car (Never uses over 7000RPM before gear changes and before the warmup light goes out) I use what Honda recommends.
    Present fleet:-
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    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


  8. #8
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    Most modern cars' user manuals don't recommend an oil specification so much as a menu to be chosen from depending on conditions of use. All are suitable for the valve gear. I would be surprised if something other than a "0" base weight wasn't on Honda's list for hot or arduous use.

    cheers! Peter

    on an unrelated note: what did you not like about your past R10 cars?

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    1000+ Posts BIGRR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post

    on an unrelated note: what did you not like about your past R10 cars?
    Come to think of it not a lot!

    My new '68 model was written off. It was replaced by the 16TS (Driveshaft, front shock and multiple gearbox problems), at 12months old it was traded on my 504Ti.

    The 10S was bought (1980) cheap with blown head gasket off a dealer (Hazell Motors), the "Boss's" 1st car.
    On a weekend loan after a few engine tweaks it somehow ended up backwards into the fence at Oran Park!
    Later after minor repairs on another weekend loan the bloody thing rolled over at a dirt motorkhana (Rear axle straps too long)! More repairs (Large hydraulic jack involved), however the car became embarrassing to drive. Each time it went up Silverdale hillclimb the doors came open.

    Time for a new (1969 model) body. Bigger engine with smaller head and MUCH shorter rear straps. This car blew a head gasket at Tamworth on a trip up north. Limped home for repairs, back to a standard R12 engine.
    After the front door fell off the Boss said .......... (Among other things). This was the last Reno I owned.

    I however did purchase a very low Km fully serviced 1971 YELLOW 10S for my eldest's 1st car. The paint and over greased mechanicals was holding the rust together. After a couple of years she replaced it with a new Laser and we sold the 10S for more than we paid.

    To sum up: I really don't think there was anything I disliked with the Reno 10.

    The rear axle straps could have been slightly shorter and the door hinge pins should have been made with a head at the top.

    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

    Previous fleet:-
    Peugeot 95' 605 Sv
    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


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    Yep! Thanks.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    To sum up: I really don't think there was anything I disliked with the Reno 10.
    Swing axles, narrow balding michelin X and wet, greasy roads.

    In conjunction with a driving style of youthful invincibility.

    A sure fire formula for "going up your own exhaust pipe"

    Yes, I learnt the handling traits first hand at the grass roots.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Swing axles, narrow balding michelin X and wet, greasy roads.

    In conjunction with a driving style of youthful invincibility.

    A sure fire formula for "going up your own exhaust pipe"

    Yes, I learnt the handling traits first hand at the grass roots.
    Yes; well, try a bog standard 1960 Dauphine "normale" with slower steering (4.2, not 3.7), cross ply tyres (an absolute no-no with swing axle droop) & no toe control beyond that provided by overstressed trunnion bearings at the wrong end of a 2 foot lever giving mechanical advantage to longitudinal contact patch forces.

    No wonder they were dubbed "widow makers".

    And yet, and yet . . . .

    As Robmac observes, there is merit in learning to drive (& fang) in such a beastie. One learns situational awareness, anticipatory corrective interventions & finely judged quantification of the latter.

    I had heaps of fun (especially on dirt but also on wet bitumen). The (X-shod) 1965 R8 1100 with which my mother replaced it was much more competent & far easier to drive on the limit. Not that that stopped me tipping it on its side within a year. The 1966 R8 1100 which replaced it did survive though & (somewhat modified) is now in my hands (see below).

    So, flawed but fun.

    cheers! Peter

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    Do you want a couple of better rear lamp covers Peter (for the R8)? if so, I'll bring them to Griffith. Not perfect but an improvement on yours.
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Do you want a couple of better rear lamp covers Peter (for the R8)? if so, I'll bring them to Griffith. Not perfect but an improvement on yours.
    Thanks John, but no. I have some but deferred fitting them until after the repaint. Just popped them on today as it happens :-)

    As things turn out, I'll be taking the 4CVG, not the R8, to the muster.

    cheers! Peter

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    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    Hmm.

    Now, I've just hopped off another (non-car) site where a mechanic says that replacing (and flushing) the auto trans will kill it.

    This is becoming quite a polarised stand: some say "never" (he said, do it at 100k then never again).

    I'm keen to have an informed answer, as my 2005 C5 HDi (4 sp auto) now has 250,000ks up and I am considering what, if anything, to do with the auto trans fluid.

    He also doesn't agree with flushing and cleaning the coolant .. although he does say that particulate matter should be flushed out.

    Any "definitive" answers to these life conundrums??
    Once upon a time:


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    Hi garyk
    Well it may come down to who you trust ! Most (all people ?) on here recommend changing the auto fluid. There are reasons given for this approach which standup to rational discussion IMHO.
    Your mechanic from elsewhere may have a different opinion, but where is the rationale behind his idea. I would like to hear it ! The idea of not changing the oil is, as far as I know, based purely on saving servicing cost, along with the notion that an average owner does not keep a car long enough to worry about.
    If you are not average, obviously with high mileage, then do something more ??

    Coolant change is universally recommended as far as I know ?? I had some technical papers from the AIME about that but gone now I think. Generally the chemicals are used up as they work to protect the metals in there, so not replenishing them seems a flawed idea. A hostile area for corrosion control in a modern motor. There should be no particulate matter ???????
    Jaahn

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyk View Post
    Hmm.

    Now, I've just hopped off another (non-car) site where a mechanic says that replacing (and flushing) the auto trans will kill it.

    This is becoming quite a polarised stand: some say "never" (he said, do it at 100k then never again).

    I'm keen to have an informed answer, as my 2005 C5 HDi (4 sp auto) now has 250,000ks up and I am considering what, if anything, to do with the auto trans fluid.

    He also doesn't agree with flushing and cleaning the coolant .. although he does say that particulate matter should be flushed out.

    Any "definitive" answers to these life conundrums??
    Far out an AL4 with 250k and no fluid change. Must be full of magic pixies. There's probably some logic behind the mechanics response to only doing 1 fluid change at 100k and that may be due to the life cycle of most cars still on the road or mechanics using the wrong fluid. I would think we need more regular maintenance on high mileage cars. As the AL4 is a pain to drain all the fluid maybe best to drain and replace with original PSA fluid either though its pricy. Wouldn't hurt to clean out the valve block as well. And hopefully you get another 250k out of the auto. Some positive news on an AL4 at last.

    Sent from my SM-G900I using aussiefrogs mobile app

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    Going back to the original post, about a Toyota, I found a Lexus issued document concerning WS spec fluids:
    • 100,000 Mile Maintenance Interval — Inspection only; ATF-WS does NOT require any flushing or changing during the life of the vehicle.
    • The use of Genuine Toyota ATF-WS is recommended.
    • The use of additives or aftermarket fluids that are considered compatible or substitutes may result in shift concerns and damage to the internal transmission components.
    • ATF-WS is NOT compatible with T-IV or Dexron ATF.
    • Containers storing Toyota ATF-WS should ALWAYS be sealed — If exposed to the atmosphere, ATF-WS may absorb moisture and potentially cause shift concerns if used in operation.
    • One time use only.
    • When performing repairs on ATF-WS equipped transaxles, it is important to use only new, clean ATF-WS when refilling the ATM.
    • ATF-WS equipped ATMs may use the overflow type procedure — Any fluid drained from the overflow plug should be discarded following proper local regulations and never reused. Failure to do so could result in shift concerns and damage to the internal transmission components.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    Going back to the original post, about a Toyota, I found a Lexus issued document concerning WS spec fluids:
    I would not implicitly believe that.

    After all, Lexus is essentially Toyota components in an upmarket body fit out. Luxury Export For US

    And the humble Toyota is not governed by such a bs diatribe.

    For what it's worth I've used Penrite full synthetic in every Toyota auto trans. And I've owned upward 8 Toyota vehicles, some Type IV, some with type WS specified. The only outcome has been smoother gear changes and cleaner fluid. However I make an attempt to remove/ flush out the original fluid.

    I see the entire ATF recommendation system as a scam and an attempt to create FUD for the amateur mechanic to bolster OEM lubricant Sales from the dealer spare parts.

    And the HDI oil manufacturer specific recommendation of PSA is of the same ilk.

    Compare the specs of the oil/ fluids and decide if your hard earned and time is worth chasing some ultra rare, hard to find liquid "gold" because it's written the car handbook.
    Personally, I'll use a good quality generic every time (and suspect many dealers do as well).
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    Rob: official Lexus document: Tech Service Bulletin, revised several times, issued to dealer service establishments. Diatribe it may seem, but it comes from the maker.

    World Standard (WS) Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) was introduced to reduce maintenance costs and increase the mileage between scheduled maintenance checks. Here are some important tips when working with ATF-WS in Lexus vehicles requiring its use.

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    Rob: official Lexus document: Tech Service Bulletin, revised several times, issued to dealer service establishments. Diatribe it may seem, but it comes from the maker.
    I'm afraid that doesn't make it technically correct, nor essential to follow. However, I'm sure it does bolster Spare fluid sales.

    I'll still follow my specification matching regime. As I have for 45 years plus without incident.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I would not implicitly believe that.

    After all, Lexus is essentially Toyota components in an upmarket body fit out. Luxury Export For US

    And the humble Toyota is not governed by such a bs diatribe.

    For what it's worth I've used Penrite full synthetic in every Toyota auto trans. And I've owned upward 8 Toyota vehicles, some Type IV, some with type WS specified. The only outcome has been smoother gear changes and cleaner fluid. However I make an attempt to remove/ flush out the original fluid.

    I see the entire ATF recommendation system as a scam and an attempt to create FUD for the amateur mechanic to bolster OEM lubricant Sales from the dealer spare parts.

    And the HDI oil manufacturer specific recommendation of PSA is of the same ilk.

    Compare the specs of the oil/ fluids and decide if your hard earned and time is worth chasing some ultra rare, hard to find liquid "gold" because it's written the car handbook.
    Personally, I'll use a good quality generic every time (and suspect many dealers do as well).
    So true - I'm amazed at the way people chase Total Quartz INEO ECS 5W-30 for their HDi's when they obviously haven't even read the spec, and don't realise, or worse still, don't even want to know there are alternatives.

    Like you say though - great for the dealers AND retailers.

    Cheers

    Justin
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  23. #23
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    There are few brands actually available in non-bulk quantities that match the Total spec. Those aren't all found everywhere either.

    I have used Penrite, and Magnatec Professional, but haven't had any problem getting Total, despite it being allegedly dealer-only in NSW.

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