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Thread: 504 T(E)I

  1. #1
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Default 504 T(E)I

    Prompted by a bout of seemingly insoluble Kugelfischer injection problems (and 17mpg doesn't agree with me at all...), I'm thinking more and more about converting to electronic injection/ignition... and I've got myself a Delco setup off a Camira as a starting point.

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    I also have a lot of bits off Camrys, but previous discussions have tempted me to believe that the Camira setup will be simpler to get right in the long run.

    The plan is to get a mild cam grind (we're not really after race engine performance, just a little extra boot and good economy) and then set up the injection etc and get it onto a dyno where they can make a chip to set it at the optimum for everyday road use.

    Once the chip's made, anyone with a TI engine can convert with the same gear and with the same cam grind and all the dyno work has been done.

    It's no overnight project, but I want to get it moving...

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    shouldn't be too hard really when you think about it

    i converted a 2.6 sigma engine to EI using the setup from a magna

    ok it basically bolted on but there was still fine tuning and finding places to stick sensors and of course modify the inlet as it went from an east/west setup to a conventional setup

    the hardest thing i can see would be getting the injectors in place and fitting the fuel rail and that's not a hard job really

    the camira system is pretty straight forward
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    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

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    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    shouldn't be too hard really when you think about it

    i converted a 2.6 sigma engine to EI using the setup from a magna

    ok it basically bolted on but there was still fine tuning and finding places to stick sensors and of course modify the inlet as it went from an east/west setup to a conventional setup

    the hardest thing i can see would be getting the injectors in place and fitting the fuel rail and that's not a hard job really

    the camira system is pretty straight forward
    I shall follow with interest. Best of luck.

    Why the camira setup? 4cycl? Simplicity? Dizzy fits?

    shobbz
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Actually, the dissy might be a bit of a problem, but I'll work that out. I can mount it off the TI injection pump drive housing if I need to...

    Main reason is I believe that the Delco's ability to have a chip made and repeated in numbers will save long term hassles... I plan to have five or six identical engines, and I don't mind if others have the same as mine.

    Additionally, 2.0ei Camiras will be falling off the road in droves shortly, as good a car (for what they are...) as they might be. They are getting 'old' and so junkyards will fill with then and parts will be very obtainable. I plan to get lots of them...

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    Fellow Frogger!
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    You'll have a lot of mates if you pull that off Ray, I converted one a few years ago using an aftermarket ecu for my clubman, big job as I made all the throttle bodies, right angle drive for the crank angle sensor etc but it goes well. Good luck with it.

    Graham Lewis

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Clubman?

    I didn't see anything that indicated a 'crank angle sensor' while dismantling this stuff from the Camira... I would have expected something, though it might be in the distributor?

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    In this instance Ray, clubman means something that looks like a Lotus Seven, Westfield etc, the fact that it's Peugeot powered makes it a bit different.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Clubman?

    I didn't see anything that indicated a 'crank angle sensor' while dismantling this stuff from the Camira... I would have expected something, though it might be in the distributor?

    it should have either have been on the bell housing or the gearbox

    i don't know also if the camira has a speed sensor like the mitsubishi cars but they also have part of the engine managment in the speedo in the dash

    you really need to get a wiring diagram for the camira

    like i said before i have done a similar conversion for basically a sigma engine

    not too hard to do but it does take a little time and some nutting out
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Graham Lewis
    In this instance Ray, clubman means something that looks like a Lotus Seven, Westfield etc, the fact that it's Peugeot powered makes it a bit different.
    Like my Jolus 203?


    'rambo... there was no sensor visible, nor any wire leading to anywhere on the bellhousing.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Like my Jolus 203?


    'rambo... there was no sensor visible, nor any wire leading to anywhere on the bellhousing.

    was there anything on the gearbox other than the normal wires for lights ?

    i think a wiring diagram for the camira is needed and the ball can then roll and get it all happening
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I have the entire loom from the computer... and I can account for every fitting but one... and that's near the cam-drive end of the engine, within a few inches of No 1 injector. I did, however, snip the loom between the computer and the dash.

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    Let me know how you go with the TEi, a fellow here in canberra is working on it, using magna injectors, not sure which computer.
    If you require a good man to fix TI pumps etc including pneumatic heads try Battersby at Pugworks in Brisbane.
    I do believe injectors are no longer available
    regards

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    I have the entire loom from the computer... and I can account for every fitting but one... and that's near the cam-drive end of the engine, within a few inches of No 1 injector. I did, however, snip the loom between the computer and the dash.

    that i say would be the one we are after

    when is this going to start happening ?
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  14. #14
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I have no idea... I'll keep collecting bits as I can, however...

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    Gus
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    (Long time away from board, thought I'd check in though...)

    The Camira is extremely unlikely to have had a crank angle sensor.

    There are two kinds of EFI: simultaneous and sequential injection. One fires all the injectors at once, the other fires each separately - hence the ECU needs to know the "crank angle." With simultaneous, the ECU just uses an eletrical pulse from the coil.

    The two are the same economy-wise, but at high RPMs sequential gives more performance (cos you can shoot the fuel at the closed valve at precisely the right moment.)

    Most modern ECUs have it (probably cos of emmissions) but no early 80s car that I know of does. Maybe high performance ones. Camira = almost definitely not.

    Good luck, Ray! I'd be very interested in how you go (if you have a fuel rail made, I might be interested in ordering a duplicate for when I get back to Oz in January. Can you email/PM me if that is the case?)

  16. #16
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Nice to hear from you, Gus!

    The fuel rail situation is the thing that bothers me most about this... with the distributor potentially right in the way of it, alloy welding a distinct possibility and all the rest of the issues. But I'll work it out...

    I have a lot of Camry gear as well, but not as much as I have from the Camira... and as mentioned, I understand that the Delco setup can have a chip made that can be readily produced in numbers to make it worthwhile going to some trouble.

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    Gus
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    The fuel rail situation is the thing that bothers me most about this...
    Yeah, that's the conclusion I came to as well. I had one solution, maybe...
    Would it be possible to make two fuel rails, one for each side of the dissy? You could join the two with ordinary EFI fuel hose which might let you loop around the dissy, esp. if it was on an extension.

    Or not. (It's been ages since I looked at a 504TI motor, so I'm going on a sketchy memory of the setup.)

  18. #18
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Yeah, that's the conclusion I came to as well. I had one solution, maybe...
    Would it be possible to make two fuel rails, one for each side of the dissy? You could join the two with ordinary EFI fuel hose which might let you loop around the dissy, esp. if it was on an extension.

    Or not. (It's been ages since I looked at a 504TI motor, so I'm going on a sketchy memory of the setup.)

    dissy is between 3 and 4 but i am sure we can run a diesel type setup with high pressure line between them all

    i'd have to have a look at the injectors
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  19. #19
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    The problem is that the injectors require a stable fuel rail to hold them in place.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    The problem is that the injectors require a stable fuel rail to hold them in place.

    in there current state yes they do but it is just as easy to get around that

    they only need to be held in not necessarily by a fuel rail

    the fuel rail does two jobs

    1 to supply fuel to all injectors and 2 to hold them in place

    fuel supply can still be separate from the duties of holding the injectors in place. for example what holds the current injectors in place ?
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  21. #21
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I don't think it's smart to start modifying injectors...

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    I don't think it's smart to start modifying injectors...

    thinking laterally there are more ways to hold injectors in place other than the fuel rail

    and they are simple ways

    diesels for years didn't have a fuel rail and older petrol injected cars don't have the either
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  23. #23
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    Ray, check out the thread about a turbo Fuego at:

    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/sho...781#post108781

    The poster used a Camira injection system on his Fuego. You might be able to get some hints. He did the development work for the Eurocars turbo R21's so should know his stuff.

    As for the fuel rail, the volume of fuel in the rail is used to keep the pressure almost constant when the injectors open (along with the regulator stuck in the end). It's not only to hold them and deliver the fuel. You'll notice that some cars have pretty big rails; these work better at maintaining constant pressure.

    Stuey

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    There used to be a company around called EFI DIRECT and they sold an adapter kit and software that enabled you program these computers in real time with (both fuel and ignition) with a laptop. I have an information kit on their products but it is 8 years old and I dont know whether they still exist.

    Jarrod

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Thanks jarrods... I have a man to whom I can go for these things. That's a little way ahead yet, gathering the equipment and making it fit comes first.

    And stabilising the injectors would certainly be better with a fuel rail, maybe one that splits in two and goes around the distributor. I would naturally be wanting to avoid too much bracketry and welding, which individual mounts would require if I'm not to actually alter the injectors.

    Lateral thinking in this case includes thinking to avoid expense...

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