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Thread: EW10J4RS build

  1. #26
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Unless there is a ready supply of E85 nearby I wouldn't bother. If so, then yes. Why not fit a flex sensor and tune for both?

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    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  2. #27
    Fellow Frogger! Brett's Avatar
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    Both local race tracks will have E85 available from the bowser, so I was going to skip it and keep the build price down as flex fuel requires additional canbus communication hardware on M48 unlike Haltech.
    Bathurst______2 57.22 Sandown_______1 35.29
    Mallala_______1 22.90 Phillip Island____1 56.41
    Winton_______1.43.90 Collingrove_______38.08
    The Bend_____2 21.96

    https://www.facebook.com/FrogstompRacing/

    http://www.harlandeng.com.au

  3. #28
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    E85 from the race track is better than E85 from the local servo too. The tolerance on the ethanol is a lot tighter, for consistent tuning. I'm going to do two tunes, E85 and straight 98, then let the flex sensor sort out the difference. Thus for sprints use E85 from the local pump, then 98 mixed with residual E85 for long distance.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  4. #29
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    What sort of power are you looking to achieve after the work is done. How are you going to retune the ECU or are you going aftermarket as I have a 180 engine that I am turbo charging and can't find any body to remap the ECU. The engine work is done and the turbo fitted I just have the cooling system to modify and the intake pipes fabricated. The power has been estimated at 400hp with 1bar boost and around 400nm of torque. I would be interested how you get on with this project as our work is looking to build a track car so we are looking to modify the engine but keep it NA as the turbo conversion is extremely expensive.
    Thanks

  5. #30
    Fellow Frogger! Brett's Avatar
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    Power is around 160hp at the wheels near 8000rpm.
    Still have a few issues to sort. Cam signal and the flywheel tooth signal are too close together and causing issues.
    Oil surge on the track due to my catch can draining back to sump with out a check valve.
    Understanding all the different new software packages is also taking time.
    jaahn likes this.
    Bathurst______2 57.22 Sandown_______1 35.29
    Mallala_______1 22.90 Phillip Island____1 56.41
    Winton_______1.43.90 Collingrove_______38.08
    The Bend_____2 21.96

    https://www.facebook.com/FrogstompRacing/

    http://www.harlandeng.com.au

  6. #31
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    Have you got a screenshot of a Ref/Sync capture you can post? They must be on top of each other to cause a conflict.

  7. #32
    Fellow Frogger! Brett's Avatar
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    EW10J4RS build-aae65e31-0099-4a4e-a64c-b5f74b2d955f.jpg
    EW10J4RS build-6f8422b4-d4c7-418e-aa09-7f015a7a5e89.jpg
    Before and after inlet cam adjustment by 2 degrees
    I’m looking at changing 12mm Hall effect cam sensor to 3/8” and mounting it in an eccentric boss to allow for adjustments
    Bathurst______2 57.22 Sandown_______1 35.29
    Mallala_______1 22.90 Phillip Island____1 56.41
    Winton_______1.43.90 Collingrove_______38.08
    The Bend_____2 21.96

    https://www.facebook.com/FrogstompRacing/

    http://www.harlandeng.com.au

  8. #33
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I don't understand why they'd cause a problem. Given they're two separate inputs, which the ECU uses to for different purposes, what is the correlation?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  9. #34
    Fellow Frogger! Brett's Avatar
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    Motec ECU sees cam trigger counts back from it to find missing tooth and if it doesn’t find it spits the dummy.
    Apparently it’s a big problem with boxer engines and timing belt stretch/flex throwing timing out.
    Bathurst______2 57.22 Sandown_______1 35.29
    Mallala_______1 22.90 Phillip Island____1 56.41
    Winton_______1.43.90 Collingrove_______38.08
    The Bend_____2 21.96

    https://www.facebook.com/FrogstompRacing/

    http://www.harlandeng.com.au

  10. #35
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    Can you please explain more about the oil surge issues and why you think the catch can is the issue? I am confused ?
    Adrian Wuillemin

  11. #36
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    MoTeC doesn’t “count backwards”. The Cam trigger (Sync) indicates to the ECU that next time the crank trigger (Ref) senses 0V after the missing teeth, the crank position is ‘X’ degrees before TDC on cylinder 1. ‘X’ is the Crank Index Position (CRIP). Cam timing change is irrelevant. The sensors are working and changing them will not correct the issue.

    Your tuner should have noticed that the crank angle sensor is wired with a 12V reference voltage and not the 8V ref voltage it should have from Pin A12 that the cam & crank position sensors share. The MoTeC oscilloscope function clips the voltage at 10V hence the flattened peaks.

    Your Sync voltage looks normal but again you need to check the cam sensor is receiving 8V reference from A12

    This is what an XU10J4 Ref/Sync Capture looks like with 60-2 & 1



    Crank Angle Sensor pinout should be (Sensor-ECU)
    Pin 1 – B16
    Pin 2 – B1
    Pin 3 – A12

    If the Cam angle sensor is wired the same as an XU then you should have
    Pin 1 – A12
    Pin 2 – B2
    Pin 3 – B16

    This is an XU10J4 Ref/Sync setup (60-2 & 1). The tangential missing tooth wave may be mirrored on the EW hence the trigger edge will be opposite. What Ref/Sync Mode are you using as I thought MoTeC had a dedicated code for “Peugeot 206RC”? (60-2 & 4-1)


    I have measured CRIP manually at 117deg which when checked with a timing light was actually 115 degrees.

    Maybe post up a capture with the engine cranking including the missing teeth and the Sync trigger.

    And timing belt stretch is not going to throw ignition timing out as ignition timing is set relative to the crank not the cams. If someone can't get MoTeC to run an engine, it's probably the idiot using it.
    Stuey likes this.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Wuillemi View Post
    Can you please explain more about the oil surge issues and why you think the catch can is the issue? I am confused ?
    I have an open drain line from catch can to sump and should have put a check valve or orifice to stop g forces pushing oil out of sump into catch can. My dumb mistake.
    Bathurst______2 57.22 Sandown_______1 35.29
    Mallala_______1 22.90 Phillip Island____1 56.41
    Winton_______1.43.90 Collingrove_______38.08
    The Bend_____2 21.96

    https://www.facebook.com/FrogstompRacing/

    http://www.harlandeng.com.au

  13. #38
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    What else connects into the catch can - the cam cover vent? Are you running hydraulic or solid cams?
    Adrian Wuillemin

  14. #39
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    Hydraulic and only the cam covers connect to it
    Bathurst______2 57.22 Sandown_______1 35.29
    Mallala_______1 22.90 Phillip Island____1 56.41
    Winton_______1.43.90 Collingrove_______38.08
    The Bend_____2 21.96

    https://www.facebook.com/FrogstompRacing/

    http://www.harlandeng.com.au

  15. #40
    Fellow Frogger! Brett's Avatar
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    Bluey, settings are the same except the CRIP is 472
    Crank angle is inductive two wire so doesn't have a power supply to it.
    Electrician says cam is 8V but I will check.
    Motec have advised the ref/sync filter settings are out(which the tuner was playing with)
    Catcams 206 camshaft have 306 split non-drive ends, not the multi-lobe ends standard on a 206RC.
    I had to lop one of the 306 lobes off for the Motec to distinguish position for sync.
    EW10J4RS build-na0lge64reowof142xz%25og.jpg
    Bathurst______2 57.22 Sandown_______1 35.29
    Mallala_______1 22.90 Phillip Island____1 56.41
    Winton_______1.43.90 Collingrove_______38.08
    The Bend_____2 21.96

    https://www.facebook.com/FrogstompRacing/

    http://www.harlandeng.com.au

  16. #41
    Fellow Frogger! Bluey's Avatar
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    If it helps, I have:

    Ref Filter
    0 RPM: 80
    1000: 60
    6000: 32
    10000: 20

    Sync Filter
    0: 120
    1000:60
    6000: 16
    10000: 8

    From what you've described with chopping the end of the cam, the Sync signal would be 0V for close to 360 degrees of crank rotation. Have you tried changing the Sync edge to 'Rising' so that the sync point is closer to the ref point for TDC? Crip would be roughly 360 less (110-120).

  17. #42
    Fellow Frogger! Brett's Avatar
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    Tuner said he has tried both. Back on Dyno Thursday.
    Oscilloscope scan attached. There are a few issues still to resolve.

    EW10J4RS build-fullsizeoutput_1a65.jpg
    Bathurst______2 57.22 Sandown_______1 35.29
    Mallala_______1 22.90 Phillip Island____1 56.41
    Winton_______1.43.90 Collingrove_______38.08
    The Bend_____2 21.96

    https://www.facebook.com/FrogstompRacing/

    http://www.harlandeng.com.au

  18. #43
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Any clue what's causing it?

    What sort of sensor is it? Cabling shielded and grounded?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  19. #44
    Fellow Frogger! Brett's Avatar
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    Hall effect, last 150mm into sensor isn't shielded.
    Spikes are coil pack induced.
    Loom from Motec and has the shielding stop around 200mm away from ECU.

    Found a dodgy Peugeot connector and it has been replaced with a Deutsch plug.
    Waiting to receive scan after this from electrician at 6200rpm but he is indicating it hasn't changed.
    Bathurst______2 57.22 Sandown_______1 35.29
    Mallala_______1 22.90 Phillip Island____1 56.41
    Winton_______1.43.90 Collingrove_______38.08
    The Bend_____2 21.96

    https://www.facebook.com/FrogstompRacing/

    http://www.harlandeng.com.au

  20. #45
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Some questions you've probably already considered.
    1. Does the wiring pass close to the coils? Can't re-route it?
    2. Why isn't the remaining 150mm shielded?
    3. Have you considered running a 2nd shield over the cam trigger wiring?
    4. What brand/model sensor?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  21. #46
    Fellow Frogger! Brett's Avatar
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    No
    Dunno, electrician said it won’t matter
    Yes, Electrician repeated won’t make a difference but I think I will anyway
    https://www.efihardware.com/products...ensor-Threaded
    Bathurst______2 57.22 Sandown_______1 35.29
    Mallala_______1 22.90 Phillip Island____1 56.41
    Winton_______1.43.90 Collingrove_______38.08
    The Bend_____2 21.96

    https://www.facebook.com/FrogstompRacing/

    http://www.harlandeng.com.au

  22. #47
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    That's the same sensor I use on the crank. I had a similar problem when the loom ran close to the coils. Solved it after re-routing down gearbox/passenger side.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  23. #48
    Fellow Frogger! Brett's Avatar
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    Did you use the resistor that came with it?

    There is on 300mm of cable before it connects in to bundled shielded section.
    I’ll see if I can reroute shielded section tomorrow.
    Bathurst______2 57.22 Sandown_______1 35.29
    Mallala_______1 22.90 Phillip Island____1 56.41
    Winton_______1.43.90 Collingrove_______38.08
    The Bend_____2 21.96

    https://www.facebook.com/FrogstompRacing/

    http://www.harlandeng.com.au

  24. #49
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    You either have to use the resistor, or select "pull up resistor" if there is an option in the software.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  25. #50
    Fellow Frogger! Brett's Avatar
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    Post Deutsch plug
    EW10J4RS build-screenshot-1-.jpg
    and at high RPM
    EW10J4RS build-screenshot-2-.jpg
    Bathurst______2 57.22 Sandown_______1 35.29
    Mallala_______1 22.90 Phillip Island____1 56.41
    Winton_______1.43.90 Collingrove_______38.08
    The Bend_____2 21.96

    https://www.facebook.com/FrogstompRacing/

    http://www.harlandeng.com.au

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