Movement in hub s1 205 Gti
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    Default Movement in hub s1 205 Gti

    I bolted the brake disc and wheel back on in order to be able to wheel the car out of the garage and noticed that the wheel rocks back and forward slightly when pushed at the top and bottom. Is this an indicator that the hub or bearing is dead? There is no driveshaft fitted on this side at the moment just the wheel so I don't know if that makes a difference or not. I have never driven the car so no idea if it does anything on the road.

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    Hi Warus
    You should not put the wheel back on the ground without the driveshaft fitted as it holds the bearing and hub together. That is the recommendation However if you do need to you could fit a longish bolt and a couple of washers as necessary to hold it together till you are ready. Just tighten it up a bit, not necessary to do it too tight.

    The bearings in there can possibly come apart when not secured together, and that is what you are seeing, and also may be damaged by running with the balls out of the correct tracks. That's the official line, but they are tough things and if you just push it around no damage will be done.

    Note; this applies to all (or most) frontwheel drive vehicles and some rear wheel drive hubs too.
    Jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 17th November 2016 at 11:18 AM.

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    Thanks Jaahn. I was hoping to roll it straight out onto a flat bed to drive the 3kms to the new house and roll it back into the garage. Guess I will put that driveshaft in again first

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    To roll it on and off the trailer you don't need to worry about the driveshaft. If you tried to drive it you would be in trouble no doubt.

    Not sure how you'd drive without a driveshaft, though.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 17th November 2016 at 02:41 PM.
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    No chance of that yet! It's going to be filled with all the goodies and dragged onto a trailer for its little trip. Better put the doors back on to hold stuff inside.

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    If you ever have any old driveshafts that are past their use by date, rather than just throwing them out…. crack the ends off them and keep for times like this when you want to roll the car around but couldn't be bothered fitting up the drive shafts.

    Jo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warus View Post
    No chance of that yet! It's going to be filled with all the goodies and dragged onto a trailer for its little trip. Better put the doors back on to hold stuff inside.

    I would be weary of doing that. If you take the time to put the doors properly it will take a while and then you have to do it again when you complete the car.

    If you just hang them on, there's the risk of opening in transit with the consequences you can imagine.

    Mind you, if something moves inside and breaks your windows you'll kick yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    To roll it on and off the trailer you don't need to worry about the driveshaft.
    Another classic piece of misinformation on the internet.

    The bearing needs to be held together at all times when moving. Even just rolling it in the shed is looking for trouble. I use old CV joints for this purpose, less the driveshaft. They don't need to be torqued to spec., but they do need enough to prevent separation.

    '92 205 Mi16
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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Well, if that's what you do, good for you habibi. That don't make it right or wrong, it just makes it your choice.

    I on the other hand have more common sense.

    And yes, I have pushed my car around a fair bit only on the bearings with no problems. I actually moved house with the car rolling around and have done the same exercise our friend here is asking about. No adverse effects.

    The Si wreck I pillage for parts has not seen its driveshafts for the last eight years and has moved around quite a fair bit. I would hazard a guess it has covered more distance being rolled about than some of the cars we hear about being pampered around here. For a car with no driveshafts, engine or gearbox, that's some achievement! Wheel bearings still there, in one piece (so to speak).
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 18th November 2016 at 12:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Well, that's what you do, good for you habibi. That don't make it right or wrong, it just makes it your choice.
    I on the other hand have more common sense.
    And yes, I have pushed my car around a fair bit only on the bearings with no problems. I actually moved house with the car rolling around and have done the same exercise our friend here is asking about. No adverse effects.

    The Si wreck I pillage for parts has not seen its driveshafts for the last eight years and has moved around quite a fair bit. I would hazard a guess it has covered more distance being rolled about than some of the cars we hear about being pampered around here. For a car with no driveshafts, engine or gearbox, that's some achievement! Wheel bearings still there, in one piece (so to speak).
    Hi schlitzaugen
    Well I beg to differ about the two bold statements above. Not putting the weight on the wheel or moving it with the driveshaft out, is standard recommendation for any brand car I know of. So the sense seems to be uncommon here.
    When I have had to do it, and have not had a stash of old driveshafts, I have just put in a suitable long bolt or threaded rod with some washers each end, as necessary, and nipped it up. 5 minutes work. Its a bummer when the inside cup slides out and the whole simple job turns to sh*t if the bearing is a bit worn. Hmmm
    Jaahn

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    At the risk of wading into an argument that doesn't concern me, actually, it does make it right schlitaugen. By your reasoning it would be quite alright to drag your trailer around the yard without the bearing retaining nut fitted. You'd probably expect the wheel to fall off some time right.

    Without the tension between the inner and outer of the front hub bearings, the moment imposed by the weight of the car sitting on it's front wheels will force the two rolling elements apart and destroy the bearing set dimensions. The tension applied by the drive shaft shoulder and nut creates the pre-load on the bearing pair - critical for the long term function of the bearing and essential to maintain the original bearing pre-set conditions.

    Just rolling the car around without the shafts fitted IS ENOUGH to place the front wheel bearings at risk. You might be lucky, you might not, and you will only know when the bearing fails, probably at 100km/h on the Monash freeway - don't call me to come and drag the car on a trailer.

    I would strongly recommend against this practice.

    I am guessing Peter T won't bother to reply, no point having an argument, but someone needs to point out the error in above posts. You may get away with it, you may cause a decent accident by the resulting bearing failure - not worth the chance!

    Signed, just another mechanical engineer.
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    Default Movement in hub s1 205 Gti

    I'm with racing405 on this one, it's likely to cause damage not detected while pushing the car around, but rears its ugly side at speed, premature failure etc... easy to go with some new bearings before you hit the road, if they haven't been changed it probably deserves them especially after all the other nice upgrades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by racing405 View Post
    At the risk of wading into an argument that doesn't concern me, actually, it does make it right schlitaugen. By your reasoning it would be quite alright to drag your trailer around the yard without the bearing retaining nut fitted. You'd probably expect the wheel to fall off some time right.

    Without the tension between the inner and outer of the front hub bearings, the moment imposed by the weight of the car sitting on it's front wheels will force the two rolling elements apart and destroy the bearing set dimensions. The tension applied by the drive shaft shoulder and nut creates the pre-load on the bearing pair - critical for the long term function of the bearing and essential to maintain the original bearing pre-set conditions.

    Just rolling the car around without the shafts fitted IS ENOUGH to place the front wheel bearings at risk. You might be lucky, you might not, and you will only know when the bearing fails, probably at 100km/h on the Monash freeway - don't call me to come and drag the car on a trailer.

    I would strongly recommend against this practice.

    I am guessing Peter T won't bother to reply, no point having an argument, but someone needs to point out the error in above posts. You may get away with it, you may cause a decent accident by the resulting bearing failure - not worth the chance!

    Signed, just another mechanical engineer.
    Yeah, what can I say?

    It is also standard recommendation you take the car to the nearest dealer if the battery goes flat or some such, and never ever attempt to start a car with FI with a jump or pushed. I know, 'cos I read it in the owner's manual. How many times have we all done it?

    But.

    I am not sure you realise, we're talking about a 205Gti front wheel. Which doesn't have two bearings, but one double row bearing. Captured outer race in the carrier with internal circlips.

    Sure, the hub is not locked inside the inner race by anything if the driveshaft is not in and tight, but so what? You're not going to roll the car at 100km/h on and off the trailer, right?

    And your comparison with the trailer doesn't work, because trailers usually have tapered bearings that don't even hold together without (as you said) tension.

    Looking at how meaty the bearing is (I have a brand new set here, by SKF) and how light the car is, I would say you'd have to be very unlucky to have any problem.

    But if you did destroy the bearing by just rolling the car a little bit, then your bearings were probably shite and would have killed you anyway.

    I have destroyed front wheel bearings in my little R10 about 20 years ago but those are some really pussy tapered bearings compared to the 205 one. All that happened was a really low frequency hum accompanied me. Didn't have any idea what it was so pulled over and there you have it. Front right wheel had a little bit too much camber. But that happened because the bearings were old and I didn't know. It was just their time. Was doing 50k/h at the time, the car didn't pull sideways, the steering lagged a bit. Both inner and outer bearings had lost rollers and cages.

    For a similar situation I can tell you the story of how a friend drove a R12 for a year without the driveshaft nut. The R12 as most people know, does indeed have two (normal, not tapered) bearings with a spacer between the inner races. Never even noticed. I pointed it to him, put the nut back on, no problem. The hub had not come out one fraction of a bee's dick in one year of driving. The R12, just like the Pug, has some seriously meaty front wheel bearings, I doubt you'd be able to destroy them in a hurry. At any rate, not rolling the car around the back yard.

    As for the hub coming out, on a R12 is a dang right bastard when you try to do it, I would think you deserved a prize if you managed to pull it off without trying. And on the R12 only the inner bearing is trapped in the carrier, the other one is clamped in place with the hub, but only if the driveshaft is in and its nut is tight (hence the inner race spacer).

    Anyhoo.

    I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. Just shared my experience. As a geologist I can promise you if it wasn't for the quick and dirty nothing would move.

    And you're not going to convince me, and I'm not going to convince you, and with or without driveshaft, the world will keep spinning.

    Like I said.

    Good for you and everyone you love and care about.

    Peace.

    Signed, just another geologist.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 18th November 2016 at 01:03 AM.
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    Rather than create my own thread I'll piggyback of this...
    I'm also getting some wobble in the hub with the driveshafts off, is this normal or should it be super tight?
    I've have noticed some front end wobble/instability whilst turning, driveshafts look ok.
    current S1 205 GTI + S3 306 GTI6
    previous s2 306 GTI6

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    The drive shafts must be in and tight or the bearings will fall out of the hubs if the car is on the ground with wheels on. This answers your question?



    Quote Originally Posted by moeozz View Post
    Rather than create my own thread I'll piggyback of this...
    I'm also getting some wobble in the hub with the driveshafts off, is this normal or should it be super tight?
    I've have noticed some front end wobble/instability whilst turning, driveshafts look ok.

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    Read the thread again. All the info is there.


    Yes its normal. Just dont roll the car around .......
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
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    Read the thread again. All the info is there.


    Yes its normal. Just dont roll the car around .......
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    91 205 Si
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    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by moeozz View Post
    Rather than create my own thread I'll piggyback of this...
    I'm also getting some wobble in the hub with the driveshafts off, is this normal or should it be super tight?
    I've have noticed some front end wobble/instability whilst turning, driveshafts look ok.
    Your wheel bearings are gone on that side. The wobble you feel (no driveshaft) is play in the bearings, and when the driveshaft is in, the wobble is accentuated by whatever forces the driveshaft is putting sideways in the bearings.

    This is assuming you correctly identified the wobble as being in the hub and not the whole hub carrier (which could mean tie rod end, lower balljoint, strut top mount or a combination of some/all of it worn/knackered).

    The wheel won't fall off just yet, but give it enough time and it will.
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    The wheels are off and the car is on stands, slightly different scenario to the OP. It's definitely the hub/bearing itself and not the carrier.
    I understand having the shafts in keeps everything tight and secure, I just don't know if it should wiggle without them..
    current S1 205 GTI + S3 306 GTI6
    previous s2 306 GTI6

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    The answer is no.

    The hub is an interference fit in the bearings, the bearings are an interference fit in the carrier, so all that's left is the bearing itself, which is ground to an incredible precision (talking microns here - one thousandth of a millimetre). Take a bearing (new, and it can be any bearing you like as long as it's a good quality bearing) and if you have a dial test indicator, try to measure how much they move (inner vs outer race). I guarantee you will not find more than a few microns of movement if you have a really good dial test indicator. Multiply that by say 100 (a very generous estimate of how far the face of the hub is from the bearing, in mm - 10cm =100m) and you will get a few tenths of a mm if that. You will not "feel" that by hand. Any more than that points at much more play at the bearing (do the reverse of above, i.e. divide the play you measure at the wheel/hub by how far you are from the bearing and you get the play at the bearing), which means the bearing is stuffed.

    The calculation above of course doesn't take into account that you actually need to use the sinus of the angle of movement at the bearing, but for our intentions here this is close enough to get a feeling for what's goin' on.

    Math buffs, of course know already that the sin of an angle is very close to zero for very small angles, and in fact by multiplying directly by 100 (or whatever the distance to where you are 'feeling' the play is) equates to using the sinus of 90 degrees, which is equal to 1 (as if you had 90 degrees of movement at the bearing - the equivalent of being able to turn the inner race perpendicular to the outer race - ha!), so a very generous approximation I allowed. In reality the sin of say 1 degree of movement is more like 0.02 so the play as calculated above needs to be multiplied by 0.02 which gives what? from a few tenths of a mm you're going down into a few thousands of a mm. That is the play allowed in the hub with a healthy bearing. Do you think you'd be able to tell by hand?

    Like I said above, (based on your info and subject to the accuracy of your observations) your bearings are knackered.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 15th February 2017 at 01:52 AM.
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    The answer is yes, the bearings will be loose, or become loose very easily if the driveshaft isn't there and hub nut tightened.

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