Xantia crankshaft pulley timing hole out
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default Xantia crankshaft pulley timing hole out

    Please can someone help me.

    I've just got a recon cylinder head for my Xanatia 2.0i 16v 1995/6 after my cambelt recently snapped. Before fitting the replacement Head I timed the DOHC using the timing holes on the cam-pully wheels, likewise I timed the crankshaft by locking the crankshaft pully through the timing hole.
    I was shocked to see that the 2nd piston was on it's upstroke and nearly TDC, whilst the inlet valves on the corresponding chamber (on my yet to be fitted head) were down (ie. if I had fitted the head I would have ended up with bent valves)
    My head looks to be timed perfectly (the valves are positioned the same compaired to a scrap head I've got) so I believe that the bottom end timing is where the problem lies. It might be possible that the previous owner fitted the crankshaft pully without the woodruff key therefore making the timing hole position irrelevant. Problem is that I can't get the bottom crank pully off to check, as the bolt has seized. Even my local garage couldn't budge it using their most powerful snap-on air gun!

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    Now to my question, does anyone know if it is possble to time the bottom end without the use of the crankshaft pully timing hole? I was told that all the pistons are Middle Dead Centre (all level in the middle of their stroke) when the bottom end is locked in the timing position. Can anyone else confirm this?
    Please help, as I think it going to be impossible to remove the crankshaft pully to check it's location on the crank. I need to find an alternative way to time the bottom end, if this guy is right about MDC when the crank is locked then my problems are over.
    Any advice, and I mean any, is much appreciated.

  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nipper
    Please can someone help me.

    I've just got a recon cylinder head for my Xanatia 2.0i 16v 1995/6 after my cambelt recently snapped. Before fitting the replacement Head I timed the DOHC using the timing holes on the cam-pully wheels, likewise I timed the crankshaft by locking the crankshaft pully through the timing hole.
    I was shocked to see that the 2nd piston was on it's upstroke and nearly TDC, whilst the inlet valves on the corresponding chamber (on my yet to be fitted head) were down (ie. if I had fitted the head I would have ended up with bent valves)
    My head looks to be timed perfectly (the valves are positioned the same compaired to a scrap head I've got) so I believe that the bottom end timing is where the problem lies. It might be possible that the previous owner fitted the crankshaft pully without the woodruff key therefore making the timing hole position irrelevant. Problem is that I can't get the bottom crank pully off to check, as the bolt has seized. Even my local garage couldn't budge it using their most powerful snap-on air gun!

    Now to my question, does anyone know if it is possble to time the bottom end without the use of the crankshaft pully timing hole? I was told that all the pistons are Middle Dead Centre (all level in the middle of their stroke) when the bottom end is locked in the timing position. Can anyone else confirm this?
    Please help, as I think it going to be impossible to remove the crankshaft pully to check it's location on the crank. I need to find an alternative way to time the bottom end, if this guy is right about MDC when the crank is locked then my problems are over.
    Any advice, and I mean any, is much appreciated.
    Hi,

    hmm, I was hoping the andyspares forum would answer this one. Why can't you replace the crank pulley ?? Use a rattle gun to undo the bolt, and a puller if you need to in order to get th pulley off. You MUST get it off anyway to remove the lower cambelt cover.

    Dunno if this will help:

    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/shane/xan...as_cambelt.htm

    good luck !!

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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  3. #3
    Tadpole
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    Fancy meeting you in here DC.

    As you can guess I'm desparate. I'm trying both ends of the world. The Pulley simply wont come off. 2 garages have tried with snap-on air tools, we've even tried locking the flywheel and using a 2foot wrench. It just wont budge.

    I've split the lower cambelt cover and removed it in 2 parts around the crank pulley. So there's no problem getting the cambelt on once I find out an alternative way to time the bottom end. I really need to confrm if this Mid dead centre advice is correct or not. With the head off it's easy to get the pistons in this MDC position. Can you advise? Cheers.

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nipper
    Please can someone help me.

    I've just got a recon cylinder head for my Xanatia 2.0i 16v 1995/6 after my cambelt recently snapped. Before fitting the replacement Head I timed the DOHC using the timing holes on the cam-pully wheels, likewise I timed the crankshaft by locking the crankshaft pully through the timing hole.
    I was shocked to see that the 2nd piston was on it's upstroke and nearly TDC, whilst the inlet valves on the corresponding chamber (on my yet to be fitted head) were down (ie. if I had fitted the head I would have ended up with bent valves)
    My head looks to be timed perfectly (the valves are positioned the same compaired to a scrap head I've got) so I believe that the bottom end timing is where the problem lies. It might be possible that the previous owner fitted the crankshaft pully without the woodruff key therefore making the timing hole position irrelevant. Problem is that I can't get the bottom crank pully off to check, as the bolt has seized. Even my local garage couldn't budge it using their most powerful snap-on air gun!

    Now to my question, does anyone know if it is possble to time the bottom end without the use of the crankshaft pully timing hole? I was told that all the pistons are Middle Dead Centre (all level in the middle of their stroke) when the bottom end is locked in the timing position. Can anyone else confirm this?
    Please help, as I think it going to be impossible to remove the crankshaft pully to check it's location on the crank. I need to find an alternative way to time the bottom end, if this guy is right about MDC when the crank is locked then my problems are over.
    Any advice, and I mean any, is much appreciated.
    I think the problem is the timing lock hole is drilled through the harmonic balancer outer, rather than the inner. The outer moves on its rubber mount over time, thus killing the timing.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  5. #5
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I agree with Peter; methinks you've got big problems if you don't get that pulley off which leaves two options; Heat or hack it off.
    Of the two options, the simplest will possibly be the heat if it can be made to work but my bet is that someone has allowed the woodruff key to slide back into its quadrant and then spannered the bolt on using excessive force & possibly busted part of the key off. Subsequently it has turned on the shaft & is now like a press fit. If you were to sort the timing (highly unlikely) I still reckon that given time & the right set of circumstances, one day it would simply fly off on you when you're in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night on a public holiday.
    Fix it properly & you can drive in peace, otherwise that scenario will always be looking over your shoulder.
    The biggest problem with heat will be the potential to damage nearby seals & gaskets but that's a risk I think you have to take, and when it's off, check the condition of the crankshaft before you go any further in case the keyway's totally stuffed & refitting may cause a repeat performance.
    Another point worthy of thought also is did this dodgy keyway or the inner one have any bearing on the cambelt breaking in the first place, which is possible if that crankshaft cog moved.


    Alan S
    Last edited by Alan S; 6th April 2004 at 07:29 PM.
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  6. #6
    Tadpole
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    Thanks for the advice guys.

    I'll try to persevere with the pulley removal, although it's been nearly 3 weeks now and it seems everyone who knows anything about cars has had a go at this bolt. We did try a little heat a few days back but with no luck. I'll try again. I really did think that my prayers had been answered when I was told at Andyspares Forum that the pistons are all level when the crank is locked. Unfortunately I've been unable to confirm this and nobody else seems to know, not even my local Citroen garage, the risks are too high to try and fire up on this assumption.
    So back to the spanners.
    PS. I dreamed all night about pulleys, this is getting bad!

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nipper
    Thanks for the advice guys.

    I'll try to persevere with the pulley removal, although it's been nearly 3 weeks now and it seems everyone who knows anything about cars has had a go at this bolt. We did try a little heat a few days back but with no luck. I'll try again. I really did think that my prayers had been answered when I was told at Andyspares Forum that the pistons are all level when the crank is locked. Unfortunately I've been unable to confirm this and nobody else seems to know, not even my local Citroen garage, the risks are too high to try and fire up on this assumption.
    So back to the spanners.
    PS. I dreamed all night about pulleys, this is getting bad!
    When the pin is engaged the pistons should all be dead level, about half way down. To undo the bolt you will need to lock the flywheel with a special tool that engages the starter motor ring gear. Make one from 3mm mild steel plate. It should be mounted to one of the starter motor bolt holes. The harmonic balancer retainer bolt is done up to 200Nm (with Loctite) so you really need to do it all properly. You will need a 2 ft. breaker bar.

    If all else fails, just make sure you've got approx. 0.035" inlet lift at TDC on No.1 cylinder.
    Last edited by PeterT; 6th April 2004 at 08:23 PM.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  8. #8
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    When the pin is engaged the pistons should all be dead level, about half way down. To undo the bolt you will need to lock the flywheel with a special tool that engages the starter motor ring gear. Make one from 3mm mild steel plate. It should be mounted to one of the starter motor bolt holes. The harmonic balancer retainer bolt is done up to 200Nm (with Loctite) so you really need to do it all properly. You will need a 2 ft. breaker bar.

    If all else fails, just make sure you've got approx. 0.035" inlet lift at TDC on No.1 cylinder.
    Thanks Peter, I,m gunna try this bolt again this afternoon. If all fails I'll try timing using the info i've learnt. I know within 5 teeth on the belt where i'm safe to spin the engine without catching any valves (thanks to my old cyl head and trial and error). When the pistons are all level one tooth movement on the bottom pulley moves the pistons out of line by nearly 2cms so it's really easy to get them in line.

    I'm at the stage where I either do it or scrap it! fingers crossed.

  9. #9
    Tadpole
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    Thanks everyone, the cars running and sounding better than it did before.

    I timed the crank by carefully getting the piston all level, In my opinion this method is just as (if not more) accurate than if I'd been able to use the pin. When a correct size pin is inserted you can still move the bottom crank pully by 0.5mm (because of the distance between the pully and the locating hole in the cylinder block), this equates to approx 1mm movement at the piston. So even if I'd been able to use a pin (which I couldn't) then it's possible that the piston too valve timing could have been 1mm out.

    Once again many thanks to everone who contributed. I owe you one.

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