DIY water injection
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Default DIY water injection

    Hi Guys,

    I am thinking about making a water injection kit for my Bx. I know it has been discussed in the past, for both forced induction and n/a. I am looking for advice as to how to constuct a kit that will have the jet/nozzle sit above/in the carb throat and therefore only suck in the water when the throttle is open. What have people used as the jet in the past and what size has given the right flow rate? (5-10% water to fuel i think) I know i will need to fix the fuel mixture after it is installed.
    So i'm guessing i will need a bottle (2 litres or so) with tube inserted from the top that then feeds to the carb throat where there is a very fine jet/nozzel that restrics the flow. Also is it possible to set up a solanoid so I can block the system off while the engine warms up therefore stopping the problem of contaminating the oil with water?
    Any help would be much appreciated! (i'm looking at Damien Gardner and Pugrambo for starters )


    Dave

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  2. #2
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    firstly go down to the local supermarket (read tip) and look for any old washing machines and grab some vaccuum switches

    they are usually mounted at the top of the machine near the timer and are used for the water level cut out

    you then rig this using vaccuum from the engine to turn the power on to a windscreen washer bottle

    as for a jet i can't remember what size i used last time but damien will have a pretty good idea

    hope that gives you an idea Dave
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  3. #3
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    The setup I had was as you describe... a bottle with a hose out the top, a piece of tube araldited into the carby base (below the butterfly, I'm fairly sure...) and along the plastic hose there was another piece of tube with a series of pinholes in it.

    You push the hose over this to cover up holes and adjust the flow rate... no pumps, no switches, no problems... saved me about 1mpg.

    Putting in a 203 gearbox saved me 1.5...

  4. #4
    WLB
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    Dave,

    The method for stopping water flow on the original designs was quite simple. A 1/8 brass tube with 45 degree mitred end was inserted into the carby base at a point at which it was on the upstream side of the throttle butterfly when the throttle was closed. (These were cars with separate cast iron carby bases. Less courage needed to drill the hole, and more wall thickness to Araldite to). Once the throttle was opened a bit the butterfly moved past this nozzle and vacuum was applied to the system. We used little slices of 1/8 plastic tube placed over the drilled brass tube at the bottle, and between each pair of holes. You could then slide each little sleeve to cover any number of the air inlet holes. These holes control the amount of vacuum applied to the jet in the water in the bottle. The water flow control jet was a short piece of brass rod with a tiny hole drill through the centre. It was inserted into a piece of 1/8 vinyl tubing on the end of the pickup tube in the bottle.

    I ran one for a number of years about 25-30 years ago. Didn't find much difference between pure water and up to 50% metho, therefore only added metho when going to the snow to stop the bottle freezing. Still got alot of the bits in the shed somewhere, I think. Can't remember the jet (drill) sizes, but can dig it out if needed.

    Cheers,
    Warwick.
    Last edited by WLB; 2nd April 2004 at 05:05 PM.

  5. #5
    EMC
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    umm... a newbie question here....

    why do you want water in your fuel? isnt that usually a bad thing
    1979 Peugeot 504 GL

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    EMC,

    The water is sucked into the air and almost immediately evaporates. This cools the intake charge making it more dense.

    This will supposedly help stop detonation (pinging), give better fuel consumption, and if tuned correctly the engine can possibly make more power due to being able to advance the timing more.

    It should also clean carbon out of the combustion chamber.


    Wawrick/Ray do either of you have a diagram or photo of your setups that could possibly be posted up here or know where i could find one?

    Thanks for everyones help,

    Dave


  7. #7
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    A search of this site for water injection will give a range of options / theories on the best or cheapest way to improve power or economy but a few basic items appear in most. Avoid siphoning effect and hydraulic lock with stop valve or non return valve. Found USA site that has kits, interesting for components used, would not be too dificult to source locally.
    http://www.snowperformance.net/
    Cheers- GavinS 25 GTX 1987 build 2165cc auto - TBR. Renault is properly pronounced "Rhen-oh."
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    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    I have often thought of doing a water injection kit, but I am a little worried about possible long term engine damage. Has anyone run one long term, and did it have any effects on engine life?
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    This could sound rather strange but I made up a water injection system using an old plastic expansion bottle from a Renault 19. This has a hose going in at the top (about 1/2 inch) and a smaller hose at the bottom.

    I connected a rubber hose from the old EGR outlet on the exhaust manifold to the 1/2 inch inlet at the top of the bottle and then ran the small outlet hose to a small needle and inserted this into the carby cover (I used a micro spray tap to adjust maximum flow).

    As back pressure in the exhaust built up, it pushed more water out of the jet.

    This worked quite well but I never really permanently installed it. I still have all the gear in the garage and will fit it properly one day. This is another way to solve the problem of increasing the water flow at high load (when the engine actually needs it) without resorting to pumps etc.

    Please note : This is my own "lateral thinking" idea, and I have not seen it used before. I assume it would work well on any car provide it has sufficient back pressure.

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    WLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMC
    umm... a newbie question here....

    why do you want water in your fuel? isnt that usually a bad thing
    If you drive, or have driven, a carburettored car you may have noticed that it seems to run better on a cold, damp or foggy day. It's the same effect. It's a relatively small amount of water and it's not actually in the fuel, but in the air.

    Warwick.

  11. #11
    WLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave
    EMC,

    Wawrick/Ray do either of you have a diagram or photo of your setups that could possibly be posted up here or know where i could find one?

    Thanks for everyones help,

    Dave
    Dave,

    I've got some of the bits somewhere. No photos of it fitted to a car. The last car I had it fitted to was sent to the government steel mill's crusher in Singapore in 1980. It was a Cortina from the '70s, so perhaps not a bad thing. I may even have some old brochures and literature for commercial units at the time. I'll send what I can find.
    BTW, siphoning isn't possible when the vacuum air bleed control method is used.

    Warwick.

  12. #12
    Cal
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    I have been doing quite a lot of reseach on water injection lately for my MX5. I purchased most of the gear to do it myself, but have now changed my mind. For what it is worth, I am going to buy an Aquamist system from the UK. This is in a forced induction application though. http://www.aquamist.co.uk/

    Cal.
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    Do you read Practical Classics? One of the writers recently fitted water injection to a turbo'd MX5.
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  14. #14
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mistareno
    .....Please note : This is my own "lateral thinking" idea, and I have not seen it used before. I assume it would work well on any car provide it has sufficient back pressure.
    Are you sure you didn't read the race report from the 1949 Australian Grand Prix?

  15. #15
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    I doubt whether they had exhaust gas recirculation emissions control setups in the '49 AGP!

  16. #16
    Cal
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pugnut403
    Do you read Practical Classics? One of the writers recently fitted water injection to a turbo'd MX5.
    No I don't. Do you have that issue?

    Cal.
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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal
    No I don't. Do you have that issue?

    Cal.
    Yes I do, I will scan you a copy.
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  18. #18
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Stuey
    I doubt whether they had exhaust gas recirculation emissions control setups in the '49 AGP!
    True enough, but exhaust pressure was used to drive the water injection on the fastest car in the event... and too much of it caused its first pit stop (which I have on video somewhere here...).

  19. #19
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    Pugnut, which issue of PC was that? My father-in-law gets it - might have a read.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Are you sure you didn't read the race report from the 1949 Australian Grand Prix?
    Well it's good to know I'm not the only person to have this idea. And as it made it through to a race engine, perhaps there is some merit in the idea.
    By the way Ray in 1949 I was -27 years old, so no, I definately haven't read the race report .

    BTW - Do you have any further info on how the car was setup??

    Regards,

    mistareno

  21. #21
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I think it had eight Amals...

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    Default Water / Steam Injection Systems

    I Read approximatly 12 Months ago in Nexux Magazine about the revolutionary steam / water injection methods, I am going to add to this list a DIY Hydrogen Carburettor Specs and info

    Here are two site that have a wealth of knowledge in these matters

    please enjoy


    http://www.keelynet.com/energy/waterfuel.htm

    and

    http://www.detailshere.com/sciencelinks.htm

    Have fun and don't blow yourselves up now!

    G

  23. #23
    WLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by xantia_vsx
    I Read approximatly 12 Months ago in Nexux Magazine about the revolutionary steam / water injection methods, I am going to add to this list a DIY Hydrogen Carburettor Specs and info

    Here are two site that have a wealth of knowledge in these matters

    please enjoy


    http://www.keelynet.com/energy/waterfuel.htm

    and

    http://www.detailshere.com/sciencelinks.htm

    Have fun and don't blow yourselves up now!
    Unfortunately it's the old perpetual motion machine in a modern guise. If you pass an electrical charge through water you crack the water into its constituent parts, hydrogen and oxygen. Very easy to do. Year 11 science stuff. Hydrogen and oxygen will recombine (violently) to release energy to drive an engine. This is what powered the huge NASA moon rockets and is the principle behind hydrogen powered cars. But unfortunately the energy you have to put in equal the energy you get out again plus all the losses due to nothing being 100% efficient. In short, if you ran an engine on hydrogen and water it could not drive an alternator capable of producing enough electricity to generate enough gas from water to run it, let alone also push the car along.

    As they say, there's no such thing as a free lunch. You get nothing for nothing.

    Regards, and sorry to disappoint,
    Warwick.

    PS Still have found that old kit I promised to post details of awhile back.

  24. #24
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    I think this design could be tailored to suit a fuel reduction system, not an out of the box 'run your car soley on water' Kit!

    I think a balanced view in this instance is required, any sort of saving on fossil fuels is worth trying, I have a mate in Toowoomba who is re-designing and building this unit as i type.

    We need a new technology when it comes to fuel, and i would be the first to offer my Xantia to becomming a guinea pig


    G

  25. #25
    WLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by xantia_vsx
    I think this design could be tailored to suit a fuel reduction system, not an out of the box 'run your car soley on water' Kit!

    I think a balanced view in this instance is required, any sort of saving on fossil fuels is worth trying, I have a mate in Toowoomba who is re-designing and building this unit as i type.

    We need a new technology when it comes to fuel, and i would be the first to offer my Xantia to becomming a guinea pig

    Sorry Xantia, I'm not being critical. I agree with your sentiments totally, but your friend is simply wasting his time. It will not work.

    These sorts of designs have been around in one form or another for more than a 100 years. They consist of individually sound pieces of science that the inventor can easily verify. He then extrapolates and links them together not understanding the overall principles involved. You alsways see bits of prototypes or drawings. Never a working, total package. And that's not because the oil companies gobble up the patents. Yes they may be greedy, and they may influence the politics of the world, but they have nothing to gain by suppressing something that the basic laws of physic will not permit to work.
    You can't get more out of a system than you put in. The amount of energy released when combining hydrogen and oxygen to produce water is the same as that required to break the water molecules in the first place. There is nothing left over. You have cold water in the tank. You need to pump it to the electrode chamber so energy is consumed by the pump to move the water, overcome friction, and produce waste heat. The electrodes use energy to crack the water. This energy comes from the alternator that is driven by the engine. The alternator is inefficient as it has to overcome friction, heat loss, etc. The engine burns the hydrogen inefficiently since the engine has frictional losses, and produces lots of waste heat. The steam that's produced in the combustion chamber contains more waste heat that goes straight out the pipe and is lost. Heat is energy.
    A properly designed system like this would work as a means of supplimenting the petrol required by an engine. However, the amount of petrol saved wouldn't be as great as the amount of petrol required to produce the supplimentary hydrogen because of all the losses. The whole thing would use more petrol. It's just arithmetic. It doesn't add up.

    If you friend really wants to contribute to reducing pollution and reliance on fossil fuels he should invest in a reputable solar or wind energy company.

    Sorry,
    Warwick.

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