Stock Airbox V's Aftermarket
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  1. #1
    Member Foxman's Avatar
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    Icon10 Stock Airbox V's Aftermarket

    Hello all

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    Ian nearly at the end of my Stock Airbox V's Aftermarket System shootout. I have found some very usefull info for people on both sides of the fence. If you want to keep your stock set-up i know where to make it flow better and if you have an aftermarket one where the best place to have the hose inlet at. So i should have it done by the weekend.

    Sorry for the time its taken me but there is quite a fair bit of results and driving roun and round that had to be done. AT least someone has been using the flow meter

    So with any luck this will stop the whole you wasted your money on a filter debate

    So keep and eye on the post to check out the info.

    Grant your friendly tester.

  2. #2
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Then you can test my Focus...

  3. #3
    Member Foxman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    Then you can test my Focus...

    Carn't see why not

    You don't mind someone cutting the crap out of your airbox?

    Do you have an aftermarket one to test it with??

    Grant

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    Grant,

    Even if you do all the tests & scientific studies you're still wrong...
    waste of money! I was talking to this old guy at a pub one day & he said theyre useless & do nothing...

    ROFL .... ha ha haaaaa

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    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    Why the negativity Nate?

    I'm all for a better solution, but time and time again I see figures distorted to suit.

    I'm ecstatic that someone can take the time and effort to test things like this, but on the other hand I'm cautious about testing procedure, and misinterpretation of the thought process that went into the design of the original setup. Maybe Grant will be able to answer that.

    In this industry there is a lot of leg-pulling, and it pays to ask yourself why and how things work.

    Case in point: Karls intake. He's happy with it, and thats really fantastic. Happy happy joy joy and all that. He made a debatable 3fwkw at the top end and thats all quite lovely. Unfortunately there was no gains where I (and I emphasise the 'I' bit) like to take advantage of when I drive, on the road and on the track.

    I feel that there is more engineering in these things that you or I could begin to comprehend. For years and years manufacturers have been using complex studies in fluid dynamics and also the use of harmonics in these systems. Why should we deem it to be unworthy just by sight? It doesn't make much sense.

    Theres an overwhelming logic that is becoming more apparent on this forum, and that is that anything aftermarket is better simply because it is aftermarket. Why is this?

  6. #6
    Member Foxman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macquered
    Why the negativity Nate?

    I'm all for a better solution, but time and time again I see figures distorted to suit.

    I'm ecstatic that someone can take the time and effort to test things like this, but on the other hand I'm cautious about testing procedure, and misinterpretation of the thought process that went into the design of the original setup. Maybe Grant will be able to answer that.

    In this industry there is a lot of leg-pulling, and it pays to ask yourself why and how things work.

    Case in point: Karls intake. He's happy with it, and thats really fantastic. Happy happy joy joy and all that. He made a debatable 3fwkw at the top end and thats all quite lovely. Unfortunately there was no gains where I (and I emphasise the 'I' bit) like to take advantage of when I drive, on the road and on the track.

    I feel that there is more engineering in these things that you or I could begin to comprehend. For years and years manufacturers have been using complex studies in fluid dynamics and also the use of harmonics in these systems. Why should we deem it to be unworthy just by sight? It doesn't make much sense.

    Theres an overwhelming logic that is becoming more apparent on this forum, and that is that anything aftermarket is better simply because it is aftermarket. Why is this?

    Well about the testing procedure i have pics of that aswell. Ive taken flows temps volume at about 10 areas in the airbox so i can get a more detailed veiw of where it gains/loses power.

    But as i have said before no matter what conclusions i come up with there will always be people who disagree with how i have done it etc etc. But as far as ive read iam the only one to have gone into this much detail into this subject and with my field of work i think iam more than suitable to do this.

    So ill have them up soon. But one thing is for definate the stock one doesn't flow quite as good as the hacked up box. One thing you can do for a RCS is put larger diameter pipes to the airbox as the stock one aren't that flash.

    Its good to see so much debate on this and i hope to in at least some peoples mind help them make that big money decision between stock/aftermarket.

    Grant

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxman
    Well about the testing procedure i have pics of that aswell. Ive taken flows temps volume at about 10 areas in the airbox so i can get a more detailed veiw of where it gains/loses power.
    How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxman
    But one thing is for definate the stock one doesn't flow quite as good as the hacked up box. One thing you can do for a RCS is put larger diameter pipes to the airbox as the stock one aren't that flash.
    I had a brief look at this pipe one the weekend. The circumferance seems to change from one end to the other. Surely it is designed like this for a reason. I didn't get a real close look as it was dark, but is this the case?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by macquered
    Why the negativity Nate?
    Ummm "ROFL ha ha haa", it was sarcasm...
    thought it was evident, plus me & Foxman know eachother well, so he knows whats going on.

    Foxman nice werk...

    "Aftermarket is better because its aftermarket"
    Ummmm so if i go & fit Cross Drilled, Slotted Rotors with 4 pot Brembo's, they'll only be better cause they're aftermarket???
    Think about it for a second huh?

    With a very few exceptions all cars are pretty much mass produced, which means there's a strong emphasis on:
    * Cost
    * Ease of assembly
    * Performance
    * Reliability
    * Complaince (emission laws etc)
    (or something along these lines)

    So almost EVERY component on a car has a factor of these built into it... Sure there's dodgy aftermarket crap & there'll always be rip off merchants, but to say or have the attitude that "its not a genuine stock configuration, and it costs money, so its a waste" or anything like that pretty much is a kick in the nuts for guys like Foxman that go & do a heap of work, to help others try to make informed decisions & give some factual evidence where there appears to be very little.

    I think we should all be more supportive for people putting in the time & effort to help us all.


    PS. "more engineering than any of us could understand", considering Foxman services/tears down/builds 747 engines(the big engines) & his team has had the longest serving Rolls Royce engine on the planet, i'm pretty sure he can understand it quite well & we can rely on his testing.
    Last edited by nate; 31st March 2004 at 09:58 PM.

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    Member Foxman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macquered
    How?



    I had a brief look at this pipe one the weekend. The circumferance seems to change from one end to the other. Surely it is designed like this for a reason. I didn't get a real close look as it was dark, but is this the case?

    We have a aiflow/temp volume meter which tells us the temp and airflow volume at various parts of the airbox ill try and put some pics up of it tomorrow so you can understand it more.

    As for the stock pipes all one size with crappy plastic end caps which no way add themselves to smooth airflow rough sharp edges and flanges don't work well towards nice smooth airflow.

    Grant

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    Quote Originally Posted by nate
    Ummm "ROFL ha ha haa", it was sarcasm...
    thought it was evident, plus me & Foxman know eachother well, so he knows whats going on.

    Foxman nice werk...

    "Aftermarket is better because its aftermarket"
    Ummmm so if i go & fit Cross Drilled, Slotted Rotors with 4 pot Brembo's, they'll only be better cause they're aftermarket???
    Think about it for a second huh?

    With a very few exceptions all cars are pretty much mass produced, which means there's a strong emphasis on:
    * Cost
    * Ease of assembly
    * Performance
    * Reliability
    * Complaince (emission laws etc)
    (or something along these lines)

    So almost EVERY component on a car has a factor of these built into it... Sure there's dodgy aftermarket crap & there'll always be rip off merchants, but to say or have the attitude that "its not a genuine stock configuration, and it costs money, so its a waste" or anything like that pretty much is a kick in the nuts for guys like Foxman that go & do a heap of work, to help others try to make informed decisions & give some factual evidence where there appears to be very little.

    I think we should all be more supportive for people putting in the time & effort to help us all.


    PS. "more engineering than any of us could understand", considering Foxman services/tears down/builds 747 engines(the big engines) & his team has had the longest serving Rolls Royce engine on the planet, i'm pretty sure he can understand it quite well & we can rely on his testing.

    Some one has faith in little old me!

    That brings atear to my eye

    Grant

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nate
    Ummm "ROFL ha ha haa", it was sarcasm...
    thought it was evident, plus me & Foxman know eachother well, so he knows whats going on.
    Thanks for filling me in there.


    Quote Originally Posted by nate
    "Aftermarket is better because its aftermarket"
    Ummmm so if i go & fit Cross Drilled, Slotted Rotors with 4 pot Brembo's, they'll only be better cause they're aftermarket???
    Think about it for a second huh?
    Huh? Don't quite follow you.


    Quote Originally Posted by nate
    With a very few exceptions all cars are pretty much mass produced, which means there's a strong emphasis on:
    * Cost
    * Ease of assembly
    * Performance
    * Reliability
    * Complaince (emission laws etc)
    (or something along these lines)

    So almost EVERY component on a car has a factor of these built into it...
    Yep. Acknowledged. I don't see how this will compromise its performance though. Theres a lot of assumption saying there is. Happy to be corrected, but I've seen nothing concrete yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by nate
    Sure there's dodgy aftermarket crap & there'll always be rip off merchants, but to say or have the attitude that "its not a genuine stock configuration, and it costs money, so its a waste" or anything like that pretty much is a kick in the nuts for guys like Foxman that go & do a heap of work, to help others try to make informed decisions & give some factual evidence where there appears to be very little.
    OK you've misinterpreted what I'm saying. Kick in the nuts? You'd have to be taking this personally then. I thought it was just an argument over the engineering merits of the Renaultsport factory.


    Quote Originally Posted by nate
    "more engineering than any of us could understand", considering Foxman services/tears down/builds 747 engines(the big engines) & his team has had the longest serving Rolls Royce engine on the planet, i'm pretty sure he can understand it quite well & we can rely on his testing.
    Sorry, that means diddly to me. Thats like saying I work in IT so I am now a Cisco engineer, when in reality I have no idea what I'm talking about. Not saying Foxman doesn't, but the loose connection between building aircraft and designing an intake system doesn't instill much faith.

    Nevertheless I'm really interested in seeing the results and seeing whether I can interpret the data for my benefit.

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! storms_of_fate's Avatar
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    Look, why don't we let the man do his tests? After that, we can burn him or hail him as our new god? huh? what say you all?

    Sometimes we just live in a little place where we are ignorant about things, even stuff with common sense stuffed right in front of our faces we don't see it, or rather we choose not to see it.

    There is no point to continue such conversation because with out concrete evidence we'd be all dancing in circles, so let the guy work in peace at least.

    We'd be more then happy to repeat another post on this kind of mods and things, actually I will save some typing by copying and pasting from some other threads.
    Karl
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  13. #13
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Karl, not sure what planet you're on, but this is a fairly calm and open debate. We all acknowledge that the work Grant is doing is of value and is not the nail in the coffin for all intake mods. It's simply more data to talk about. This is what a FORUM is for. If you don't like it, perhaps you should look elsewhere. You obviously have your ideas, and as do other members, please start showing the mutual respect I'm sure you would expect others to show you.

    As for the topic at hand, let's keep the open discussion flowing. Brenno brings up some very good points and I don't think he's asking anything unreasonable.

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! storms_of_fate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    As for the topic at hand, let's keep the open discussion flowing. Brenno brings up some very good points and I don't think he's asking anything unreasonable.
    I did not name anyone, but i know for sure people here do ignore hard data, or even say things about a piece of data that isn't even correct... to a point where the data shows otherwise in writing. I'm on planet earth, I show everyone respect. It is NOT a discussion when concrete data are turned into personal opinon. i will not say more as I have said before.
    Karl
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  15. #15
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    I think even Grant will acknolwedge that his studies will not produce HARD facts. They will simply provide another viewpoint and even this viewpoint witll have some limitations. You seriously expect us to all shut up and accept that the stock system is THAT bad? That'd be a tad boring, wouldn't it?

    I know from driving back to back identical GTi6s with a modified intake and an unmodified one that there was no difference in performance on the track. Actually, with the intake, exhuast and R compound tyres, the unmodified one with street tyres and an LSD posted the faster times. So we come back to the previous said point that tyres and an LSD s one of the best mods you can make to your car over a modified intake and exhaust. On a GTi6, anyway.

  16. #16
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    I know from driving back to back identical GTi6s with a modified intake and an unmodified one that there was no difference in performance on the track. Actually, with the intake, exhuast and R compound tyres, the unmodified one with street tyres and an LSD posted the faster times. So we come back to the previous said point that tyres and an LSD s one of the best mods you can make to your car over a modified intake and exhaust. On a GTi6, anyway.[/QUOTE]

    This is really getting interesting. There is so much conjecture and personal opinion flying around the place. Judging by the comment above it seems that the modifications performed on the "Non Standard" Gti6 were not very good. I'm confused about the tyres. Tyres make a massive difference in performance on the track. Maybe the standard ones on the GTi6 are fantastic tyres.

    I have modified my Clio and improved by output power at the wheels and also my lap time at Wakefield Park. Of course the lap time is not a good indicator as I was improving too. The Dyno is a better way to make a decision on performance.

    Keep digging I am interested in your work. Well done.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    I think even Grant will acknolwedge that his studies will not produce HARD facts. They will simply provide another viewpoint and even this viewpoint witll have some limitations. You seriously expect us to all shut up and accept that the stock system is THAT bad? That'd be a tad boring, wouldn't it?

    I know from driving back to back identical GTi6s with a modified intake and an unmodified one that there was no difference in performance on the track. Actually, with the intake, exhuast and R compound tyres, the unmodified one with street tyres and an LSD posted the faster times. So we come back to the previous said point that tyres and an LSD s one of the best mods you can make to your car over a modified intake and exhaust. On a GTi6, anyway.
    Lincoln,
    my Yokie A-008R's were not true R compounds like A032R. There were street tyres with an aggressive pattern somewhere between A539 and Azenis I'd say (trying to get more info on them). And the day you drove my car I was running about 5psi more per tyre that anyone else hence the crappy performance of the suspension and handling. My fault.
    Last edited by tekkie; 1st April 2004 at 09:11 AM.
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  18. #18
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    I am really interested in seeing the results.

    I haven't done it to a Clio but it is a common mod to MX5's.Mine made 66kw with a flat torque curve without CAI and 72 kw with CAI,unfortunately on two different dyno's. A second test with extractors on the same dyno saw the 72 kw go to71 but more power down low( typically 1-2kw) and better torque everwhere to 6000rpm when power and torque fell away.

    On the road it is a much better car.

    Peter

  19. #19
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tekkie
    Lincoln,
    my Yokie A-008R's were not true R compounds like A032R. There were street tyres with an aggressive pattern somewhere between A539 and Azenis I'd say (trying to get more info on them). And the day you drove my car I was running about 5psi more per tyre that anyone else hence the crappy performance of the suspension and handling. My fault.
    Yokohama list the A008R as being replaced by the A032R. So, sure they're old, but they're still an R compound, they were heaps more grippy than the FM901s I was running. I reckon they'd be better than the Azenis RSs, too. I realy liked them, with the right pressure I would've been quicker in it.

    My point is that even with all the intake and exhaust mods (Esscargo kit, btw, for everyone else, it is a quality peice of kit), did not appear to give any comparative advantage through the corners and shift points over my car. There was a difference in "feeling", but watching the tacho, I found no difference. It's a long time ago now, though, but it was the tyres that was the main difference, nt the intakes/exhausts, IMO.

    Sajn, I was running Dunlop FM901s on my car.

  20. #20
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    Pics and Results PLLLEEAASSSEE......

    Im waiting!!!

    Take ur time FOXMAN.. ive waited this long, a couple more weeks wont hurt me.....

    Q: where is the best place so far u have tested to duct the aftermarket system????? Or maybe i should wait for that toooooo.....

    THANX
    Jaime....

    "Honda makes power for the hell of it, Renault makes power you can use".

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    Fellow Frogger! storms_of_fate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    You seriously expect us to all shut up and accept that the stock system is THAT bad? That'd be a tad boring, wouldn't it?
    Naaa, ofcourse not!! I never said that. But I do expect the acceptance that the stock parts can be imporoved, and that it is not a FAULT on the manufacture's part that they can be improved.
    Karl
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    I think even Grant will acknolwedge that his studies will not produce HARD facts.
    If he's using good quality equipment & a scientific approach (i.e. minimising variable change), why wouldnt it be fact?

    It might not prove its "better" (which cant be measured), or give it more power (test on a dyno), but i would say it will prove & produce hard facts about the air flow in the 2 different boxes/setups.

    Comments?

  23. #23
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Brenno, myself and a couple other mates that have raced and tuned cars talked about this at lunch today. He's gathering his thoughts and I assume will post something soon on why flow isn't the be all and end all. I've also spoken to some other mates who have raced cars and am still left unconvinced that even after these results come through, that much will be proven. Nate, you know this, we've talked off line on this matter.

    One interesting thing I heard today is that you can have a car dyno'ed and dyno'ed immediately thereafter and get 8 more kw at the wheels. Wow, fancy that, that's a better mod than Karl's, there! Karl, how many dyno runs did you do?

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    One interesting thing I heard today is that you can have a car dyno'ed and dyno'ed immediately thereafter and get 8 more kw at the wheels. Wow, fancy that, that's a better mod than Karl's, there! Karl, how many dyno runs did you do?
    is that a proven fact?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    Brenno, myself and a couple other mates that have raced and tuned cars talked about this at lunch today.
    You keep requesting facts & when data is supplied u still dont accept it as fact. But you reply with "we talked with guys that have raced & tuned cars", which is even further from factual evidence???
    If i have a heap o dosh, go & buy a race car & tune it, there's nothing to say that i've tuned it better or i have a better understanding of how a car works.

    Not avin a go at your mates or saying that they have no valid input, but they've got even less data to back up anything than Foxman will have

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