Difficult "cold" starting Mi16 engine
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  1. #1
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    Icon5 Difficult "cold" starting Mi16 engine

    Hi peoples,

    Ok, enough answers from me, it's my turn to ask a question.

    Since I finished building my 205 1.9 Mi16 with Aussie Mi16 motor and ECU, it's taken about 6 seconds of cranking to start the motor when it is cold or turned off for longer than say an hour. I can guarantee you it has nothing to do with battery or starter motor. The electrics are perfect, I did them myself. Starter motor sounds full of bounce - nice and smooth and strong!

    Once engine fires, it 'flutters' a little and requires a quick rev to smooth it out, by which then, the ECU has flashed the diagnostic light '12' code which signifies the start of a fault-code readout sequence.

    If I turn the engine off then start it again only a second later, it starts first crank, runs smoothly (no fluttering) and fault-code readout sequence does not start. Sweet!

    I've continued the fault-code readout sequence from the '12' and always get '11' (end of fault-code readout sequence) straight away - i.e. nothing is wrong.

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    I recall reading about this somewhere - perhaps 205 GTI Drivers Forum, but that was a long time ago...

    Any answers for me peoples?

    P.S. Car runs really well - full power. All engine ancilleries new Peugeot parts. Coil, Spark Plug Leads, Spark Plugs (correct type too RFC58LS3). Could it be fuel rail working up to pressure? Fuel injectors related?
    Last edited by 205 GTI16; 24th March 2004 at 10:30 PM.

  2. #2
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    not a fuel pump relay problem maybe ???

    bad earth happening and when you try it again as the charge has been through there it's ok

    the starter might be drawing too much current and not allowing enough for other items

    i'd start checking relays and earth points
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  3. #3
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    Sorry pugrambo,

    Considering I can start the engine with the headlights on whilst cranking, I'd say there's ample current to run the coil (sparks), fuel pump and starter motor simultaneously.

    I'm an electronic/electrical engineer dude. I'm very confident around electricity.
    Last edited by 205 GTI16; 25th March 2004 at 12:37 AM.

  4. #4
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 205 GTI16
    Sorry pugrambo,

    Considering I can start the engine with the headlights on whilst cranking, I'd say there's ample current to run the coil (sparks), fuel pump and starter motor simulatenously.

    yes but is the curent getting to the pump

    have you tested to make sure it is ok

    i take it the pump is the same one that was in the car before the implant ?

    what if you turn the ign on and let the pump build up pressure then start the car does it still crank over and over ?

    i find that with any injected car i have ever owned i have always turned the ign on and let the pump run for 5-10secs before starting the car and they have always started fine
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  5. #5
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    There is 12V at the pump when the ignition is on.

    Unlike more modern fuel injected cars, I *don't think* the 205 primes the lines prior to cranking. I think the moment the key is turned to START, the pump goes like crazy and of course continues to run once the key is let go back to ON and the engine is running.

    (When the engine stalls in all cars, the fuel pump relay shuts off so that in event of stall resulting from an accident, the fuel stops being pumped)

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Luca's Avatar
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    My 205 primes the lines before the starter motor cranks. I always find it better to leave it on ignition for a second or two before i hit it with the starter motor.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luca
    My 205 primes the lines before the starter motor cranks. I always find it better to leave it on ignition for a second or two before i hit it with the starter motor.
    Not challenging you Luca, but how do you know it primes?

    Can you hear it if you're quiet, like you can in most newer cars?

    I've never heard my 205 prime - even when it was 8v... And it started first go when it was 8v...

    (And nothing's changed to electrics at all as a result of the conversion! Only knock sensor and Idle speed solenoid wiring added + 16V ECU which I had a Bosch agent test 'OK' )
    Last edited by 205 GTI16; 25th March 2004 at 01:49 PM.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Luca's Avatar
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    Yeah man i can hear it... it's pretty loud actually. A click then ZZZZZZT.

    I've turned the key back and forth and it (of course) doesn't prime a second time.

    Maybe i got a one off!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luca
    Yeah man i can hear it... it's pretty loud actually. A click then ZZZZZZT.

    I've turned the key back and forth and it (of course) doesn't prime a second time.

    Maybe i got a one off!
    Sound like you know the noise

    What year is your 205? Mine is 92. I've never heard it ever...

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 205 GTI16
    Sound like you know the noise

    What year is your 205? Mine is 92. I've never heard it ever...

    my 306 pump starts up on ign and i wait then i start the car

    you can hear it if you stick your head under the back of the car
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  11. #11
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    I have the same problem but nothing is original on my car.

    What I think it is, is fuel draining back out of the fuel rail. Of course this is a slow process so when you start it shortly after you've stopped it still has fuel in the rail. In my case I prime the pre-pump (I have a surge tank then another pump) a couple of times and then it will stumble then next time it will start.

    Try priming the pump a couple of times by turning it to the on position then all the way off then prime again and so on.

    The other fix is to put a one-way valve in the fuel line to stop it draining back.

  12. #12
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    MYT205,

    You're thinking along the same lines as me which is reassuring - fuel pressure.

    It's just been suggested to me (by Stuart at Charles St Auto (Peugeot) in Adelaide (who seems to always have a spot-on technical answer to anything I can throw at him!)) , that I must suspect the pressure is dying away after that hour or overnight, and it requires 6 seconds of cranking to come up to pressure again.

    It has been suggested:
    1) I make sure my Mi16 Pulsation Dampener (which is really not necessary in the fuel system anyway) is not over-regulating (impeding) fuel flow;
    2) My injectors are leaking fuel (dripping very slowly) when the engine is off for that hour or longer period which is flooding the engine hence requiring more cranks to expel it before igntion can occur.
    Last edited by 205 GTI16; 26th March 2004 at 12:25 PM.

  13. #13
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    If your injectors are leaking fuel into the manifold then I would have thought you would have lots of black smoke when starting because it has so much fuel in the engine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MYT205
    If your injectors are leaking fuel into the manifold then I would have thought you would have lots of black smoke when starting because it has so much fuel in the engine.
    There's only smoke where there's fire mate... and there's no fire for 6 seconds!

    So if it is dripping injectors, the fuel simply gets expelled into the exhaust pipe, NOT combusted...

    Will let you know when I get around to fixing it myself.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by 205 GTI16
    the fuel simply gets expelled into the exhaust pipe, NOT combusted...
    I'm not sure if that's such a good thing for your catalytic converter - if you have one.
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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    There is already a one way valve in the pump, and it sounds like it, or the injectors are leaking, more likely the pump. It would be no worries if your car did prime before starting, like most pugs do. The injectors leaking at that rate would also cause other fueling and power problems. Can't remember if my 205 did or not, but all my others have, including S1 and S2 405 SRis.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by LookingforMi16
    I'm not sure if that's such a good thing for your catalytic converter - if you have one.
    The chassis / cat. conv. is 160,000km old (longest they are designed to last - 100,000 miles) and it did start rattling (died) only weeks ago, and now I recall I've had this starting issue since a couple weeks before that occured.

    Hmm... it might all line up...

    Anyway, I'll let you know what I find guys...

  18. #18
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    Problem solved guys.

    Unfortunately for this thread, this time the credit goes to my mechanic mate in Adelaide I spoke to on the phone yesterday.

    Problem: LEAKING INJECTORS (dripping whilst car is off and lightly flooding engine)

    I simply replaced them late last night with another set I had from the original 8V motor ('JAZ) which uses the exact same injector Bosch part number.

    Starts first crank after being off all night and starts first crank an hour after being switched off hot.

    MYT205, you can close this thread now.
    Last edited by 205 GTI16; 26th March 2004 at 12:57 PM.

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