Water Pump Rebuilding
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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Icon7 Water Pump Rebuilding

    Once we step away from the "classics" where parts are readily serviced at sane prices, there are such difficulties.

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    I have a leaky PRV water pump* (two, actually - one is a spare). Replacements are thin on the ground and upwards of $350. Many people list phantom stock; been there, bought that, got the refund and apology...

    What I want to know is what's involved in a water pump rebuild when the shaft sealing ability is rooted? These pumps are a pretty old school type, bolt on and driven by a multirib belt - not the timing kit.

    Input is appreciated; I promise not to argue with Robmac out of sheer cussedness.



    * Another casualty of the blocked cat problems. Overheating has blown out the seal - been like that since purchase and loses about 5ml/km.

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Best thing to do is press it apart and inspect! Seals, bearings and your labour will be far cheaper.

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Can you get that sort of stuff, though?

    I've read about ceramic seals, carbon seals, yada yada but then can't find such stuff listed by sizing in the manner you can source (for example) bronze bushes.

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    COL
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    Hi Addo

    I have never pulled one apart, but if you have a completely stuffed water pump that you can sacrifice as a guinea pig you don't really have much to loose.

    Press it apart and see if the bearings and seals are common off the shelf parts. You may be able to rebuild for about $50 plus your time.
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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    What do you mean when saying shaft sealing ability is lost? Is the shaft grooved?

    I had shafts metal sprayed and reground in the past. Rebuilding parts (seals, bearings, impellers) were available in the past for water pumps on R12s for instance, but that was eons ago, in a place where little was thrown away.
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    Remember some Landrover nostalgia a while ago? These had carbon seals fitted on the shaft between the bearing and impeller. There was a locating screw in the side of the bearing to remove. We used to drift out the impeller, bearing and seal as one out of the casting; then cut and remove the seal; then drift the bearing off the shaft. Usually only the seal was crook. From memory, the pulley hub, and the impeller were press fits and must be very tight but these were rarely bad if you hadn't rusted them. You'd curse if you got the bearing locating hole out of alignment and had to do it again, but it was a simple job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    .... I promise not to argue with Robmac out of sheer cussedness.
    FU2 - I've only delved into XN water pumps and after pulling a few apart life is too short to stuff around with them.

    So now I buy a quality replacement bare pump ( ) like a Valeo or QH swap the parts to it.

    If were to pull an expensive pump apart I'd look at modifying (you probably don't know the meaning ) it to use off the shelf seals and bearings because sure as hell the OEM parts will be like rocking horse poo to obtain.

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    What about gutting the old pump, welding it up and using an Electric Pump?
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    Done plenty of Morris Minor waterpump rebuilds and used to have additional seals on hand, was easy and if done properly you have confidence in your own work - kinda miss those days when you could buy components inexpensively. One of my jobs on the back-burner is to replace a Commodore waterpump and it will be the whole pump and housing as the last one corroded itself away while sitting unused for a few years, I guess it was a cheap chinese replacement rather than an OEM part.

    I guess if the old waterpump main components and housing are o.k. and you can press the parts out of it, then it would not be hard to make up a sealing mechanism - how long it would last though might be another thing, I just looked to see if I had a SASIC water pump catalogue (I don't) they usually have a comprehensive illustration of the after market parts available for most European cars.

    You could try this Indian company they seem to make/sell seals for everything.

    Water pump seal Manufacturer,Supplier of booster pump seal,Mechanical seal

    Ken
    Last edited by Kenfuego; 20th January 2014 at 04:11 PM. Reason: add seal link.

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    It's now been dropped from further production (this is recent-ish). 290 odd plus freight is the cheapest they might be found...

    I've chucked in some pictures; Shane will recognise the pump as similar to the 2.5 diesel XM. The pulley is clearly painted separately to the pump/shaft which leads me to think it's pressed on cold, late in the game.

    No hangups about modifying the pump if it gives better/equal sealing with a boost to reliability or lower net cost. Thing is, I have no idea whatsoever about the internals of the shaft and seal arrangement.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Water Pump Rebuilding-water_pump_1.jpg   Water Pump Rebuilding-water_pump_2.jpg   Water Pump Rebuilding-water_pump_3.jpg  

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    Get or borrow a good quality puller, the pulley seems robust enough to apply reasonable pressure to the centre shaft, then gently warm the centre boss with a gas flame and it should pop off easily, then you need to access the seal area, hopefully it won't be too corroded, mostly you will destroy the seal getting it off the shaft. next thing is to find a similar seal. Even if you end up with junk, you learn something IMHO!

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    Addo, I agree with Kenfuego. In the good old days we fixed these seals on a regular basis. If you had a Landie you weren't even expected to have a workshop, just hand tools (they used a cast iron housing). As long as the case and impeller haven't corroded away it's probably only the seal. The shaft usually only corrodes if water gets into the bearing for too long. There is usually a drain to tell the tale.

    If you can't get a seal or perhaps a bearing here or at the usual European sources, change your search to look up India. All sorts of service items for old engines now come from there and the quality of the Rover stuff was OK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno View Post
    What about gutting the old pump, welding it up and using an Electric Pump?
    You dont even need to weld up the old pump , just leave it off and fit a Ford hose ( I have the number if you need it ) it fits perfectly onto the Y junction in the vally and onto the electic water pump mounted on the radiator lower outlet spigot.
    Remove the thermostat from the top hose , conect the wires to the battery , fill with coolant and drive away.
    I mounted the ECU on the dash to make use of its temp gauge and it allows you to monitor the system to know when the pump is running , power supply etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    It's now been dropped from further production (this is recent-ish). €290 odd plus freight is the cheapest they might be found...

    I've chucked in some pictures; Shane will recognise the pump as similar to the 2.5 diesel XM. The pulley is clearly painted separately to the pump/shaft which leads me to think it's pressed on cold, late in the game.

    No hangups about modifying the pump if it gives better/equal sealing with a boost to reliability or lower net cost. Thing is, I have no idea whatsoever about the internals of the shaft and seal arrangement.
    I would suggest the shaft is pressed into the impeller as first stage assembly. Then the impeller plus shaft assembly is pressed into the front pulley.

    My reason for believing this is the solid step on the pulley which is a strong and secure position to support the pulley whilst pressing.

    I don't think either the pulley nor the impeller look strong enough to support the the "fingers" of a puller.

    I would start an extended soak oi kero/diesel/ WD 40 whatever.
    Make a steel plate (15mm thick at least) to be snug fit overt the step in the pulley, then heat the impeller and try press the shaft out of the impeller and through the puller . You can press out the front pulley later (same direction/jig?) and press the impeller back on afterwards.

    I know for sure, before reassembly, the shaft should be made an easy on the pulley and pinned on with a pair of concentric roll pins. Ream a a taper pin (memories of German film projectors) if you are a masochist, but do mark the small end with a file mark.

    A pinned pulley is easier to reassemble and service.

    Edit: I'd also make pressing mandrel with a small dowel on the end which indexes into a small hole on the impeller end of the shaft. It's easy to spin the pulley in the lathe(stop the pump spinning with a clamp) and make small counter bored hole. Then the alignment is maintained whilst pressing.

    Liquid lanolin is magic when using a press.
    Last edited by robmac; 20th January 2014 at 05:58 PM.

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    Default pumps and seals

    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Once we step away from the "classics" where parts are readily serviced at sane prices, there are such difficulties.
    I have a leaky PRV water pump* (two, actually - one is a spare). Replacements are thin on the ground and upwards of $350. Many people list phantom stock; been there, bought that, got the refund and apology...
    What I want to know is what's involved in a water pump rebuild when the shaft sealing ability is rooted? These pumps are a pretty old school type, bolt on and driven by a multirib belt - not the timing kit.
    Input is appreciated; I promise not to argue with Robmac out of sheer cussedness.
    * Another casualty of the blocked cat problems. Overheating has blown out the seal - been like that since purchase and loses about 5ml/km.
    Hi addo
    In the middle ages, of old cars, there was a move to 'cassett' combined bearing and seal assemblies, These are usually of standard sizes of shafts and the OD of the combined bearing/seal assembly. Different lengths of shaft are used. if you can get a longer length then cut the shaft to length.
    The bearing/seal assembly is not dissembleable as the balls run in grooves in the shaft and directly in the outer long housing. They explode if you try and press them apart. However they are fitted to the housing by pressing and the impeller and pulley are pressed on!

    try looking for SKF Water pump bearings; I am currently out of good internet contact.
    jaahn.
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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    That is excellent information. I quickly surfed for some imagery and indeed it does look like the small amount of what I can eyeball behind the impeller.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I would be tempted to sacrifice the pulley stepped part by grinding it away gently (dremel on two diagonally opposing sides) until the pulley comes off without effort, take it out and investigate what to do with the seal/bearing. After repair, I would machine a flat face on the pulley (looks like a flat face where the step ends), and a snug fit boss pinned to the shaft as Rob explained and bolt that to the pulley boss (flat) face.
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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    The pulley is stouter than it looks; a quick belt with the oxy and squirt with Rost-Off or Inox should aid its removal, or at least damage the dry frictional bond between pulley and shaft. Taking Jaahn's comments into account, another method of dissembly might be to bore out the shaft from inside the pulley and impeller until there was only a quarter mil wall left.

    Squinting into the impeller side of the bearing on my spare pump, I can see a dry/cracked rubber seal portion of the bearing face. This could well be the sort of way failure starts, once oil in the coolant has destroyed the rubber.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Not until you posted it last night - they also list 1201.94 which is the Pug part number - but with no crossover to their own coding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Don't do it! If the quality is anything like that of the chinese lawn mower my sister bought, you'd be lucky to even get it fitted without something breaking off!

    Cheers

    Alec

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    I've got Taiwanese balljoints made by a factory stood next to rice paddies (have looked it up on Google Street view) and they're fine. Have also used plenty of the Chinese sourced AL4 solenoids off AliExpress without grief.

    Anyway, this week's "pressies" will be new exhaust bits and hopefully (weekend) reseal the cam covers. Water pump is a controlled leak, whereas the top radiator hose is a time bomb.

  23. #23
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    I seized a passing opportunity. Used V-blocks in a press, with pump sunny side up pushed the pulley down onto the casting first, then pushed the shaft through the pulley, then the bearing shell out of the casting with impeller still attached. Casting will clean up nicely.

    The OEM shaft/bearing assembly is made by Koyo. I don't yet have a part number for them. It's rooted from water ingress. FAG bearing is apparently W2431-SS (availability poor) with the caveat of not having yet removed the impeller to confirm shaft diameter - just used sliding calipers. Getting these numbers right when you are somewhat dyslexic can be a real mongrel.

    There is (was?) a mechanical seal at the impeller back; its rubber bellows failed and wasted away. The rotating seal face (not the static part, the dynamic section) is also no longer bonded to its backing.

    Overall, I want to make two points. First I forgot to post this thread in the Pond (sorry David!) but secondly it gives much hope to the idea of salvaging an expensive part from failed units. "We" only need a spec and P/N for the carbon face mechanical seal and it's close to sorted.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Water Pump Rebuilding-img_20140121_155238.jpg   Water Pump Rebuilding-img_20140121_155335.jpg  
    Last edited by addo; 21st January 2014 at 04:31 PM.

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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    I seized a passing opportunity. Used V-blocks in a press, with pump sunny side up pushed the pulley down onto the casting first, then pushed the shaft through the pulley, then the bearing shell out of the casting with impeller still attached. Casting will clean up nicely.

    The OEM shaft/bearing assembly is made by Koyo. I don't yet have a part number for them. It's rooted from water ingress. FAG bearing is apparently W2431-SS (availability poor) with the caveat of not having yet removed the impeller to confirm shaft diameter - just used sliding calipers. Getting these numbers right when you are somewhat dyslexic can be a real mongrel.

    There is (was?) a mechanical seal at the impeller back; its rubber bellows failed and wasted away. The rotating seal face (not the static part, the dynamic section) is also no longer bonded to its backing.

    Overall, I want to make two points. First I forgot to post this thread in the Pond (sorry David!) but secondly it gives much hope to the idea of salvaging an expensive part from failed units. "We" only need a spec and P/N for the carbon face mechanical seal and it's close to sorted.
    Good work there Addo. Just need to get those bearings and seals off that shaft and hunt down the numbers on them.

    Another way is to find some off the shelf bearings and seals that will fit without any machining to the housing.
    Regards Col

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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Good work there Addo. Just need to get those bearings and seals off that shaft and hunt down the numbers on them.

    Another way is to find some off the shelf bearings and seals that will fit without any machining to the housing.
    Col
    The bearing looks like it is a conventional type and all going well the seal should be too - always happy when people try a fix - if it works great if it doesn't then you have learned something. A pug should have used available off shelf parts. The early Japanese cars were a bit of a nightmare as they used many strange sized components and shafts made to a size they had available.

    Well done Addo, keep on persevering!!

    Ken

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