Peugeot 404/504/505 XN engine management
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Thread: Peugeot 404/504/505 XN engine management

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    Fellow Frogger! callipygous's Avatar
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    Default Peugeot 404/504/505 XN engine management

    Who here on the forums is running a programmable electronic ECU on their 404/504/505's with the cast iron (XN series) engine? What kind of power are you getting? More importantly, what sort of ignition maps are you running? The standard distributor seems to be quite conservative in its ignition curve and I'm wondering what people have gotten away with in terms of more aggressive ignition timing. What do these engines like to run?

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    Fellow Frogger! callipygous's Avatar
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    I'll start the ball rolling... here is what I'm running at present. TPS vs RPM on 10 psi motor.
    Peugeot 404/504/505 XN engine management-screen-shot-2013-07-23-5.56.03-pm.pngPeugeot 404/504/505 XN engine management-screen-shot-2013-07-23-5.56.18-pm.png
    Peugeot 504 Intercooled T04 Turbo, Four Mikuni R1 carburettors, external waste gate, Microsquirt ignition, 5 speed.

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    Good!! Shadowpucci is using a MS-3X, you can see his thread here... Peugeot 404 "el sapo" chronicles.

    And also here participates... Megasquirt - Build and install


    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    It is simply impractical to expect a petrol motor to get through too much water. That's why God invented diesels.

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    As molerpa says, im running my XN6 engine in my 404 with a MS3, wasted spark, and dual fuel (CNG injection and gasoline injection). Only NA, not turbo yet.

    Ignition tables? ok, let me show you my ignition tables (still being under fine-tunning but runs smooth)

    Gasoline

    (97 octane gasoline)

    CNG (about 20 degrees plus the gasoline ignition)



    This engine LOVES the advance, and does not have trend to detonate easily than others than Ive tuned.

    By the way, you says than you re running a TPS vs RPM table and you re running @10psi boost. Why do you use TPS based tables and not VE based tables?

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    Fellow Frogger! callipygous's Avatar
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    Interesting tables, you sure are using a lot of advance. The original table from the Haynes manual I've got here only goes to 17 degrees advance! I'm using TPS as I haven't installed a MAP sensor yet - the bike carbs I'm using came with a TPS attached. I'm finding it works well, until I tamper with the boost and I have to remap!

    Have you had this vehicle dyno'd? It's great to see somebody else doing something with these XN engines, they're a smooth, solid motor. What is CNG, btw?
    Peugeot 504 Intercooled T04 Turbo, Four Mikuni R1 carburettors, external waste gate, Microsquirt ignition, 5 speed.

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    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Compressed Natural Gas.
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



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    17 deg distributor or 17 deg crankshaft?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Distributor curves, I think, Peter.
    Peugeot 504 Intercooled T04 Turbo, Four Mikuni R1 carburettors, external waste gate, Microsquirt ignition, 5 speed.

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    That would equate to 34 deg crank, then add another 6-9 for vacuum advance and you're up at 40-43 at light load cruise. Fairly normal for that type of engine?
    Last edited by PeterT; 27th July 2013 at 01:25 PM.

    '92 205 Mi16
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    Fellow Frogger! callipygous's Avatar
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    How does this work? I'm not sure I am following...
    Peugeot 504 Intercooled T04 Turbo, Four Mikuni R1 carburettors, external waste gate, Microsquirt ignition, 5 speed.

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    I'm not at all familiar with the inner workings on an XN, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, however, when you suggested 17 deg., it occurred to me you might be talking about distributor degrees, rather than crank. Distributor curves where often, but not always, expressed in distributor RPM and degrees as per the attached 911 curves. These are the centrifugal curves. On top of these can be added the advance from the vacuum module. If a 6 deg module, it could add from 0 to 6 deg depending on the load. Zero at wide open throttle, 6 deg at cruise.

    If you consider the 911T curve, it would have a maximum of 30 deg crank (15 deg dist) at 6000rpm, WOT. Cruising at 3000 rpm, it might have a total of 28 deg. ie 22 deg crank (11 deg dist) + 6 deg vacuum.

    The ignition tables of modern ECU's are usually expressed in crank degrees. Thus a table from 10 deg at idle, through to 40 deg at light load is plausible for a OHV, low compression, cast iron engine.

    Also attached is an Mi16 (Bosch 161) part throttle map for comparison.

    I should also add that I'm not suggesting that you increase your values. 15 deg at full load is very safe for a turbo. Until you change over to MAP sensing I'd leave it, other than possibly increasing the off boost, light load values a bit in order to improve fuel economy.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Peugeot 404/504/505 XN engine management-advancecurve_24-27_011297172650.jpg   Peugeot 404/504/505 XN engine management-161partload.jpg  
    Last edited by PeterT; 27th July 2013 at 02:09 PM.
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    '92 205 Mi16
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    Quote Originally Posted by callipygous View Post
    TPS vs RPM on 10 psi motor.
    Another thing I've noticed, is that your load is not linear. When mapping via TPS, the throttle % opening happens very slowly. ie rather than going 0%, 10%, 20% 30% etc., it should go 0%, 1%, 3%, 7%, 10%, 15% etc.

    Also, have you verified with a timing light that at idle your ECU map value matches your actual value? I notice that you don't have a 1000rpm point, which means at idle it would be interpolating between 5 deg and 17 deg, making verification difficult. Can you lock the timing at say 10 deg.?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Yep, I've been able to lock the timing at 10 deg and check with a timing light. They matched.
    So what is the difference between distributor degrees and crank degrees? I've never heard it mentioned like this before.
    Peugeot 504 Intercooled T04 Turbo, Four Mikuni R1 carburettors, external waste gate, Microsquirt ignition, 5 speed.

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    The distributor turns at half the speed of the crankshaft, thus degrees is also halved if measured there.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Default Distribution of knowlege of spark !

    Quote Originally Posted by callipygous View Post
    Yep, I've been able to lock the timing at 10 deg and check with a timing light. They matched.
    So what is the difference between distributor degrees and crank degrees? I've never heard it mentioned like this before.
    Hi
    As usual Peter has given the "good oil" on this topic.

    However perhaps I could just provide a historic perspective particularly for the owners of older engines still going. As has been said the distributor runs at half crankshaft speed as do the camshaft(s) so the distributor is usually driven by the camshaft.

    In the (good) old days the distributor was removed from the engine and put in a 'distributor test m/c' to check its settings and to adjust the springs and weights as required. Most Auto electricians had one. The m/c drove the shaft of the distributor directly at "distributor degrees" so the books usually just quoted these so they could be directly compared.

    Now of course there are no mechanical parts in under the Distributor Cap or indeed no cap at all on most engines now. The computer has tables of input which are all linked to the crankshaft and its position. So everything is given in crankshaft degrees including the spark and any thing else required. The cam just has a sensor to see what revolution it is on.

    Those distributor degrees have tricked people up for years, even when they were more commonly used. Check what it says on the graph !!
    Jaahn

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    Fellow Frogger! callipygous's Avatar
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    Thanks for the good info, guys.

    So what AFRs are you getting shadow?
    Peugeot 504 Intercooled T04 Turbo, Four Mikuni R1 carburettors, external waste gate, Microsquirt ignition, 5 speed.

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    Sorry for the delay... I was quite busy this last time.

    Well, the car has a small problem, and trends to crash taxis, so now it is being repaired.

    About the curves?

    The last time with dynotest the car, this was the results

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8RI...it?usp=sharing

    It was with mixer (a restrictor in the intake), the lower curves are torque and horsepower at CNG, and the higher at gasoline. There was a problem with the gasoline pump, and the camshaft was not correctly timed, that was why the difference is so small at lower rpms, the car must have a better performance on gasoline than in cng.

    Then, i make some improvements, like time correctly the cam, remove the mixer and instal a cng injection system, blow a head gasket, crash, etc...

    AFRs depends of each fuel. On gasoline, it likes rich as hell. Lambda 0.84, 0.85, thats about 12.5:1 or more. And it a NA engine, i dont wanna think about it when i put the turbo...

    On cng (because the fuel is different) it doesnt like so so rich, it works about 0.89 to 0.92, thats like 15.1:1 to 15.6:1 (stoich of CNG is about 17:1)

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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowpucci View Post

    Well, the car has a small problem,
    Yes, a Small Fiat Siena inside of the bonnet...



    Quote Originally Posted by shadowpucci View Post
    Then, i make some improvements, like time correctly the cam, remove the mixer and instal a cng injection system, blow a head gasket, crash, etc...

    In order:

    overheated it.
    overheated it quite much
    blew the gasket
    INSTALL MY HEAD AS YOURS IS BAD CONDITION (So I will remember you that you are using MY alternator, MY Differential, MY Cylinder head...

    then, you ate that Fiat Siena... and STOLE THE READ END OF THAT VEHICLE!!



    (To the rest of the aussiefroggers, don't worry... most of the times we both have half of the car belonging to each other )


    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    It is simply impractical to expect a petrol motor to get through too much water. That's why God invented diesels.

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    Hi Guys. I intend getting myself a 404 van and using a 505 engine in it. Fellow enthusiasts here in South Africa have told met that the
    505GTI's 2.2L won't work in a 404 because it won't align with the gearbox. I then posed another question to them:"How about simply
    using the head of the 505GTI, slot it onto the 404?" I got another no, because the 505GTI's block and head are apparently totally different to the 404/504 arrangement. I have two 404 sedans(factory fitted with xm7), so my preoccupation with the 505GTI is the
    injector system. I could easily throw in an XN1 but that wouldn't be too different to what I'm used to(XM7s). I want excitement, something more exciting than that, without going overboard. I had a look at www.peugeotech.com.au and it seems that 404 is fitted with the 505GTI(Douvrin). How did they get away with this? Would I have to use a 505 gearbox too(5 speed), any real benefit to that, besides a quiter freeway drive? Would I have to tamper with the diff as well? I know some of my questions are actually answered already on this thread but I felt I had to send a specific question. I can hardly wait for your expert advice

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    Fellow Frogger! callipygous's Avatar
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    Have you ever driven a 505 GTI? They're really not that exciting to drive...and can be very expensive to work on with all the seals that can leak. My biggest problem with the engine is that it vibrates and feels 'busy' all the time and really doesn't feel any quicker than the XN motor. Give me a XM/XN motor anyday.

    The GTI head certainly won't bolt up to a XN motor, like you were told, they're completely different engines. A fuel injection XN6 head should bolt up, however.

    I have seen the turbocharged peugeotech 404 with the GTI motor in it. That's Stew's car. Maybe he'll speak up soon and let you know how it all fit if I haven't persuaded you against it.

    Why not look around for an XN2 fuel injected 504 motor or XN6 505 motor? Sure, the fuel injection on the XN2 is old and mechanical, but it can go well when it's tuned properly, but it's difficult to tune and best left to someone who knows the system (good luck finding someone who does).

    Best option? XN6 motor. Second best option? XN2 motor with the KF fuel injection removed and your own fuel injection setup adapted (read Megasquirt) or motorcycle carburettors. Either way, you'll want to go to a electronic ingition system, which Megasquirt will handle too.

    Some people have fitted V6 PRV motors to 404s. Another option to consider, if you want good power. You'll have to put the battery in the boot from memory.

    Using the 5 speed will give you an overdrive, which would be nice. Not sure how it fits. From memory Stew kept the original 4speed 404 gearbox in his. If you went to a later gearbox you'd lose the column shift - which is too much of a trade off in my opinion. Rather have a column shift
    Last edited by callipygous; 22nd August 2014 at 08:39 PM.
    Peugeot 504 Intercooled T04 Turbo, Four Mikuni R1 carburettors, external waste gate, Microsquirt ignition, 5 speed.

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    How did they get away with this? Would I have to use a 505 gearbox too(5 speed),
    Ask fellow frogger, "Stew" he did the conversion.

    Stew owns and drives the 404.
    Mutual Respect is Contagious


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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by callipygous View Post
    Have you ever driven a 505 GTI? They're really not that exciting to drive...and can be very expensive to work on with all the seals that can leak. My biggest problem with the engine is that it vibrates and feels 'busy' all the time and really doesn't feel any quicker than the XN motor. Give me a XM/XN motor anyday.
    I think thats a fair statement, re vibrations. Mine is balanced and lightened and hard mounted to the car, but perhaps that busy feeling is the devil that makes me want to wring the guts out of it.
    On the road, it is actually no slower than a cam'ed 12v 2l douvrin. I think torque is up but I have not measured it so thats just a guess.
    Maybe the old saying 'There is no replacement for displacement' comes into effect.

    Not sure what you mean about the seals??

    Jo

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    I have a stroked Douvrin, around 2.3 litres, offset ground crank (95 mm) with Datsun L20 rods and 504 pistons.
    It is balanced, has a lightened flywheel and a modified cam, by Clive Cams.
    Feels great, power really comes on at 3500. 90kw at wheels, 10kw more than a local DFW Mi16 will give so should be in the region of 155 HP at the flywheel.
    I'd like to see it being used again, the car has gone to reshell a V6 rally car, so it is just sitting on my workshop floor.
    I also have a Megasquirt 1 ECU, dyno mapped to this engine including loom.
    The ECU is available by itself with a standard 505 GTI map if preferred.
    Anyone interested?

    Quote Originally Posted by callipygous View Post
    Have you ever driven a 505 GTI? They're really not that exciting to drive...and can be very expensive to work on with all the seals that can leak. My biggest problem with the engine is that it vibrates and feels 'busy' all the time and really doesn't feel any quicker than the XN motor. Give me a XM/XN motor anyday.

    The GTI head certainly won't bolt up to a XN motor, like you were told, they're completely different engines. A fuel injection XN6 head should bolt up, however.

    I have seen the turbocharged peugeotech 404 with the GTI motor in it. That's Stew's car. Maybe he'll speak up soon and let you know how it all fit if I haven't persuaded you against it.

    Why not look around for an XN2 fuel injected 504 motor or XN6 505 motor? Sure, the fuel injection on the XN2 is old and mechanical, but it can go well when it's tuned properly, but it's difficult to tune and best left to someone who knows the system (good luck finding someone who does).

    Best option? XN6 motor. Second best option? XN2 motor with the KF fuel injection removed and your own fuel injection setup adapted (read Megasquirt) or motorcycle carburettors. Either way, you'll want to go to a electronic ingition system, which Megasquirt will handle too.

    Some people have fitted V6 PRV motors to 404s. Another option to consider, if you want good power. You'll have to put the battery in the boot from memory.

    Using the 5 speed will give you an overdrive, which would be nice. Not sure how it fits. From memory Stew kept the original 4speed 404 gearbox in his. If you went to a later gearbox you'd lose the column shift - which is too much of a trade off in my opinion. Rather have a column shift

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    Quote Originally Posted by callipygous View Post

    Using the 5 speed will give you an overdrive, which would be nice. Not sure how it fits. From memory Stew kept the original 4speed 404 gearbox in his. If you went to a later gearbox you'd lose the column shift - which is too much of a trade off in my opinion. Rather have a column shift
    I'm a big fan of the column shift and I'm in the minority in South Africa. People here prefer the aftermarket fulray floorshift system.
    I would want a floorshift though on my van. Could that tiny 504GL stick work? I once heard someone say the later 504 shifts won't work on a 404 because the linkages are mounted on the body. Maybe that's why Peugeot South Africa used a shifter from the early 504 wagon when they made the special South African 404GL in 1974. I have a workshop manual which I downloaded sometime ago from www.504.org. It has some detailed tune up steps for the Kugelfishcer XN2, would that be enough for a DIY dude like myself or I should just forget about? Alternatively I could ask the BMW club guys to help me. My understanding is that the bmw 2002 uses a similar system. Is the XN6 fuel injection easier to tune compared to the Kugelfischer? If that's the case maybe I should rather go for it. German cars are very popular in South Africa, especially the VW Golf. I'm sure those guys can tackle any K or L-Jetronic system

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    Default Kiss( Keep It simple Stupid) works well for me!

    Hi Edmund, I gave you those 32 DIR Weber details! For Many years I have been driving 504s and 505s always with the XN 2.0 Litre Engine. Recently I Got a 505 STi, for the purpose to strip, for the suspension! For a 504 rally car project I am working on. But it had Rego, so I drove it for 4 months till I took it off the road. The car had covered 550000 km, and still drove well, but leaked oil like a bloody sieve! I can,honestly say it went not that much better than the 2litre engine, but it did use more fuel doing it! also , it was a bloody pig to work on, in comparison to a XN engine. You,ve got to be a contortionist to change the dizzy cap. The XN engines don,t have seals at the rear main, or timing cover, only a Schroll, so what ain,t there( only clever design!) can,t leak. I spent many years in Africa, Driving Overland Trucks from London to Capetown ( 6 Month Journey!) The 404s, 504s ruled Africa, due to there simple trouble free design!THat is why I became a convert and drive them still. How fast do you want to go? my 1977 504 will sit on 140kph all day long with ease! Still using points and a carby! cheers Andy
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