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Thread: Panhard

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Panhard

    This article appeared in todays issue of the "Coastal Times". Sorry about the poor quality of the print but it goes onto say there were only 13 of these cars imported into Australia in 1959 and this could be the only one still surviving in Australia. I personally inspected this car (and I would say 5 years back) when it was advertised for sale at $15,000. It is true that it was in the back of a shed covered in junk (which I removed), it is a non-runner, wiring in a mess, bad rust in the sills and on the bulkhead in front of windscreen, dents all over the roof, rat's had feasted on the interior, missing parts and the list could go on, offered $500 which was knocked back. Saw it advertised a month later for $1,000 ono. The car is a personal import from Africa and not one sold new in Australia, so beware if you show an interest in this vehicle. Also attached is a pix I took 5 years back.

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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Panhard-p01.jpg   Panhard-panhard01.jpg  

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    RHD relatively rare. French pl19s in good running order fetch 4 to 5 k euros. With the fading supply of critical spares, restoration would be a difficult sourcing exercise. There is little in these cars in common with any other marque. Might be worth 500 for spares if the engine and gearbox run OK.
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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Panhard,
    Frustrating in not being able to bring up the thumbnails. The page just blacks out.

  4. #4
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    Hi John W.

    Works on mine.

    John P.

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    I remember 1 or 2 having been for sale around 10 years ago in Just Cars, so others may survive in Australia, but fascinating to see another.
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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by panhard View Post
    Hi John W.

    Works on mine.

    John P.

    I'm getting the thumbnail blackouts on other threads/posts also.

    Don't want to whinge but the problem has only occurred since the changes?

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    I'm getting a thumbnail, but too blurry to see...is it for sale? How much? I just bought myself a nifty little Bellett GT, plus my Bond in the shed, so not in the market for a project, but I do love Panhards. Unfortunately, not enough time and money for another project. I missed a maroon one on eBay several years back, sold for ~$2000 from memory...a running Dyna with a PL17 bonnet, imported from the US a decade before.

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    No price was indicated in the article but I have the feeling the fellow might be bit of a Wally looking for a quick buck. Remember the car was bought for less than $1,000. The given contact is an email address which is as follows:- [email protected]

    "Good Luck"

  9. #9
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    Default Panhard (for sale)

    This might help a little.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Panhard-panhard03.jpg  

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    A little expansion on a point in the otherwise accurate description. The ball and socket arrangement on which the rocker pivots is used to set the tappet clearance by hydraulic pressure supplied from the low pressure oil system and controlled by a tiny spring and ball valve that the author may have missed. Once unscrewed and the spring and ball lost on the garage floor, the fun commences.
    However, with the cost of parts and the time involved and the fact that these cars are not that rare in France means that a restoration is a labour of love and unlikely to result in a value to compensate. In Australia it may be different in that there are too few to make a market and the price is not set by competitive offerings. Here there are always a few advertised for sale.
    See http://auto.yakaz.fr/panhard-pl-17-occasion
    We have here a very competent engineering group in the Centre who are trying to get parts made to acceptable standards but not everything is available. The needle roller bearings in the gearbox and the synchros have not been made for decades and the stocks are exhausted. The pistons and sleeves were matched by selection, critical to reliability and the range of pistons left is very limited. These are the sorts of challenges.

    Should anyone be brave enough to try a restoration I can put them in touch with the parts sourcing, the Clubs and other sources of help and encouragement.
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  11. #11
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    Sold for $4500. Might see it at the French Car Festival in 10 years or so ........... maybe?

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    Fellow Frogger! degruch's Avatar
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    $4500!?! That $2k runner I missed out on is looking better every day
    Current French: Non
    Current Other: 2011 Nissan Dualis Ti, 2009 Ford WB Fiesta, 1965 Nissan CSP311 Silvia, 1968 Bond Equipe GT

    Past Frogs: 1962 Renault R4, 1959 Renault Floride, 2005 Peugeot 206 GTi 180 (RIP)

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    skp
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    Someone seems to have the wrong end of the con rod... or more aptly, the Panhard Rod.
    Having inspected the car yesterday with the (now relieved) new owner, I find that it is an eminently restorable car.
    Rust? What rust ?? I have rarely seen such sound bodywork. There are two cut holes near the top indicators ( some idiot with an anglegrinder !!!) but all of the body is VERY sound. I can't find ANYTHING missing from the car... Even the fragile plastic dash parts are Ok and will make great masters for more robust fibreglass reproductions.
    Dents in the roof? VERY minor.
    RELIABLE history of the car puts it as a LONGTIME resident of WA. Good ENGLISH language Parts and Service manuals are a real bonus!
    "Panhard".... what the hell are you talking about????????

    SKP

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    I would strongly recommend that the owner joins a Panhard Club such as
    http://www.panhardclub.co.uk/
    The bodywork is no big deal. The steel is nothing special and most of the components like bumpers are available second hand in France. The instrument binnacles although in plastic are available second hand in acceptable condition. The real costs and challenges come with the engine/gearbox. The UK site lists the special tools needed and for some of them like the one to remove the timing gears and so access the engine, have no alternative in a normal garage tool trolley.
    A reconditioned crankshaft/con rod set now runs around 2000 euros and the cost is justified in the work involved. Since I restored the mechanics of my Panhard about five years ago the parts supply for the mechanicals has dried up and the prices have risen dramatically.
    As a point of comparison, I helped a friend buy a PL17 recently for which he paid a similar price to this non runner.. However it was fully registered and in running order. He drove it home, has tidied up a few details and it appears in our Club outings.
    I wish your friend luck in the restoration, there would be less than a hundred of these PL17 in RHD still running and as you would expect, they are nearly all in the UK. However, the majority of the spares, tools and knowhow lies in France.
    The group in the Centre at Limoges run residential training courses before Xmas every year in an endeavour to share and keep alive the skills needed to keep these cars on the road. I have found them extremely valuable and also important in network building with other owner/restorers of the marque. It is a French car and you do need some knowledge of the language to participate in the hands-on teamwork.

    I am responsible for the international relations of our South West section of the Dynamic Club Panhard et Levassor (DCPL) which doesn't give much to do, so if I can be of any help.........
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  15. #15
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    Default Panhard

    Hi Gerry,

    Have no idea who owns the car now and didn't know the seller either except that I heard he is an hoarder of cars. I hope it's gone to a loving home and to someone that knows what the car is all about. The attachments are of an article that appeared in the Australian "WHEELS" magazine August 1959 and an advertisement of the later car from the English "Autocar" 15th April 1960.

    JP - SIMCA MAN
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Panhard-dyna03.jpg   Panhard-dyna04.jpg   Panhard-dyna05.jpg   Panhard-dyna06.jpg  

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    The concern I have is that it maybe given to someone to restore as if it was just another car. Of course, the internals are very specialised and the manual is just a guide. You have to have experience with its oddities. It was no joke that it was described in the British motoring press of the time as the most expensive economy car in the world.
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    skp
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    Gerry,

    Thanks for the advise and directions. I will be the principal mechanic on the restoration, and have already got a few offers of help from local people who know the cars idiosyncrasies well. I am delighted to find such a store of parts available..... seriously !! I am used to dealing with Unobtainium components. The owner has already started researching the parts supply, with a few pleasant surprises. I never imagined being able to get front and rear glass seals... We will be doing a small breakdown and making a list of desirable replacement parts. Both his and my technical French is patchy, so we will be asking for some assistance at some time.
    The car is indeed scruffy, but I am very pleased with the overall condition.
    I stated previously that the car was local... It was, in fact, imported from Tanganyika as a relatively new car. I think that the subsequent 50 odd years classifies it as 'local' !

    Thank you.
    SKP

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    Tanganyka is present day Tanzania,once a German colony pre WW2,became a Britrish colony after the war. The film " The African Queen " with Bogart and Hepburn,was based in Tanganyka. Fascinating povenance for a fascinating car,that dared to be different. Cheers and godd luck with the resto.
    1975 Citroen DS 23 Pallas

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    For those rubber parts and lots more I recommend
    PIECES PL

    Alain LAUFFENBURGER
    10, rue HAUSSMANN
    68124 – LOGELBACH
    Tl.: 03 89 80 81 46 ( de 20h 21h30 )
    who has a very good on line catalogue.
    Panhardis (Jol Brunel) has a diverse stock but is reluctant to deliver by mail.
    You should not have any parts problem until you address the engine/gearbox which are full of unique parts whose current demand is insufficient to justify retooling.
    Good luck!!!
    gerry
    Last edited by gerry freed; 11th September 2012 at 02:14 AM.
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  20. #20
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    SKP,

    Pleased to hear it is in good hands and with someone who knows what they are doing. I together with fellow enthusiasts look forward to seeing it back on the road, it must be in the early 1970's since I last saw one on the road which was red in colour and owned by Cafe owner who had a business in William St. close to Newcastle St. in what is now known as Northbridge. Lloyd's of Subiaco was the state distributor and I saw their one and only (I think) import sitting in the showroom, from memory it was beige in colour, maybe it was this one that was repainted red as I had never seen another until I came across your car which was a personal import.

    JP - SIMCA MAN

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    Quote Originally Posted by panhard View Post
    This article appeared in todays issue of the "Coastal Times". Sorry about the poor quality of the print but it goes onto say there were only 13 of these cars imported into Australia in 1959 and this could be the only one still surviving in Australia. I personally inspected this car (and I would say 5 years back) when it was advertised for sale at $15,000. It is true that it was in the back of a shed covered in junk (which I removed), it is a non-runner, wiring in a mess, bad rust in the sills and on the bulkhead in front of windscreen, dents all over the roof, rat's had feasted on the interior, missing parts and the list could go on, offered $500 which was knocked back. Saw it advertised a month later for $1,000 ono. The car is a personal import from Africa and not one sold new in Australia, so beware if you show an interest in this vehicle. Also attached is a pix I took 5 years back.
    I know very little about Panhards (Citroen are my weapon of choice) but this is a Dyna Z, right? The Dyna Z was superseded by the PL17 which was replaced by the 24. So what is a PL19, Gerry? A typo?
    There was a '59 Dyna Z owned by a guy in central Victoria. I saw it about six or seven years ago (maybe more) when he had it for sale for what I thought was an unrealistic price. I gather that he subsequently died and the car passed to a CCOCA member in Melbourne.
    roger

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    The 17 was not replaced by the 24.. The 24 was a sports car aimed at a different market. The post war model history is well summarised at http://www.panhardusa.org/aboutpdb.phtml. From here it looks like a 17 and I assume it is steel bodied. The 19, I have never heard of.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    ..........The 19, I have never heard of.
    Refer your post of 29th Aug in this thread.
    roger

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Yet another typo. It should have read 17. Senile dementia is no joke!
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    skp
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    Yes, the Victorian car went to Leigh Miles, a CCOCA board member of long standing. Strange that I should wind up with one in my workshop....
    The mechanical parts don't worry me too much (yet ! ) as I can generally cope with quite major mechanical disasters. I fixed large Caterpillar bits for a living some years ago... usually without available sizes. Made for some interesting inductive reasoning.!
    What concerned me was the body and component condition. I am overjoyed to see that so much is available. A geartooth can be welded and cut - a strange shaped bit of rubber is another matter.
    Quite a number of people have come out of the woodwork over the newspaper articles. Some have considerable experience / knowledge of the technicalities of the Dyna. With some advise and help along the way, I'm sure it has a good future.
    It should be in my workshop in a few weeks ( just moved workshop, so all is chaos at this time !) and I will post some detailed photos then.

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