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    Fellow Frogger! petitepoupée's Avatar
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    Default For the Panhard diehards

    Spotted this in France in '07. Should have posted these much earlier. Enjoy.

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    1000+ Posts Bad Bertie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petitepoupée View Post
    Spotted this in France in '07. Should have posted these much earlier. Enjoy.
    That is really so nice. BTW, are there any 24ct,s in this country?

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    Quote Originally Posted by petitepoupée View Post
    Spotted this in France in '07. Should have posted these much earlier. Enjoy.
    That will be of interest to Gerry Freed I'm sure

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I don't think that is a CT, but then again, what would I know? I think the CT is a coupe not a fastback.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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    1000+ Posts Bad Bertie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    I don't think that is a CT, but then again, what would I know? I think the CT is a coupe not a fastback.
    No, its not a CT.

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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Yes indeed, lovely car. Not a 24 or a DB Panhard. Could be one of the Swiss coachbuilt ones. I will ask the expert.
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    Default panhard

    I believe it to be a Panhard-CD of which 160 were made between 1963-1965. The CD was a true sports car. It had an aerdynamic polyester body and tubular chassis. A Panhard CD won the important Le Mans Inedx of 1962. The tuned 848 cc. engine produced 50 bhp at 5,750rpm to achieve 100mph (160kms/hour)

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    Fellow Frogger! petitepoupée's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by panhard View Post
    I believe it to be a Panhard-CD of which 160 were made between 1963-1965. The CD was a true sports car. It had an aerdynamic polyester body and tubular chassis. A Panhard CD won the important Le Mans Inedx of 1962. The tuned 848 cc. engine produced 50 bhp at 5,750rpm to achieve 100mph (160kms/hour)
    Now I wonder why it was called a Cd ... ?
    Edit: no ... not what I thought (drag coefficient..), rather "Car Design"? Any opinions?
    I guess it's a somewhat rare and presumably expen$$ive item, too!
    Last edited by petitepoupée; 30th November 2011 at 05:50 PM. Reason: correction/addition
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    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    Have been keeping a keen eye on this, and it is a beauty! Aero clean lines and no covers on the headlights, ?, or is it to actually cause a 'stand off zone' so no muck can settle?
    Aside: Is it possible to have a two Franc Smilie? Just 'cos wee can.

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Yes, it is a CD. They were designed and built by hand by Charles Deutsch, the D half of DB Panhard. The mechanicals are mostly Panhard who sponsored the racing and marketed them. The takeover by Citroën killed them off.
    Today, the few that remain are sellnig at as much as 320,000 euros.
    You should have made an offer!
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    Quote Originally Posted by petitepoupée View Post
    Spotted this in France in '07. Should have posted these much earlier. Enjoy.
    Gorgeous!! Spider wheels too, which shows how early good streamlining was developed post-war.
    JohnW

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    Fellow Frogger! petitepoupée's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Gorgeous!! Spider wheels too, which shows how early good streamlining was developed post-war.
    Gawd! What an eye for detail! Glad I posted this - I've learnt, as a Panhard ignoramus, so much: so "CD" ain't Cd or Car Design ... rather, Charles Deutsch!
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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    The wheels are not what they seem. Here are photos of one on my 24ct.

    The outer part is a steel rim with a polished alu trim riveted on. The inner part is the brake drum! On the road cars like mine, this was an alu casting with a steel inner band pressed in place which formed the braking surface. The fluted cast drum projecting from the wheel was supposed to provide adequate cooling. The centre polished alloy hub cover is just trim, screwed to a spider spanning the bolts that hold the drum to the stub axle or transmission.
    So if you want to change a tyre you can remove the exterior bolts and swap rims or the inner ones and swap the brake drums as well. The racing ones were all alu alloy, I believe.
    The brakes, in spite of the cooling system were inadequate for the performance and fade rapidly as I have found descending 10kms of 1 in 10 in the Ardèche. So after a couple of years they changed to discs. This in 1965 was a very early production use of disc brakes and they were custom designed for the car. They certainly stop better! The YouTube video posted by UFO of me driving Antoine's car with disc brakes shows me with a happy grin, confident that I could stop the thing. The wheels were of a conventional construction.
    The disc brakes have proved a hassle. They were alloy calipers with steel pistons which corroded rapidly. As they are non-interchangable with other cars, they have become very rare and a pain to keep operating. As a result my very early model with drums and the finned wheels is becoming more sought after and collectible.
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    The wheels are not what they seem. Here are photos of one on my 24ct.

    The outer part is a steel rim with a polished alu trim riveted on. The inner part is the brake drum! On the road cars like mine, this was an alu casting with a steel inner band pressed in place which formed the braking surface. The fluted cast drum projecting from the wheel was supposed to provide adequate cooling. The centre polished alloy hub cover is just trim, screwed to a spider spanning the bolts that hold the drum to the stub axle or transmission.
    So if you want to change a tyre you can remove the exterior bolts and swap rims or the inner ones and swap the brake drums as well. The racing ones were all alu alloy, I believe.
    The brakes, in spite of the cooling system were inadequate for the performance and fade rapidly as I have found descending 10kms of 1 in 10 in the Ardèche. So after a couple of years they changed to discs. This in 1965 was a very early production use of disc brakes and they were custom designed for the car. They certainly stop better! The YouTube video posted by UFO of me driving Antoine's car with disc brakes shows me with a happy grin, confident that I could stop the thing. The wheels were of a conventional construction.
    The disc brakes have proved a hassle. They were alloy calipers with steel pistons which corroded rapidly. As they are non-interchangable with other cars, they have become very rare and a pain to keep operating. As a result my very early model with drums and the finned wheels is becoming more sought after and collectible.
    That's lovely engineering and thanks for the information. My Renault R8 with alloy callipers has the same corrosion issue, manifested in the 'o' ring grooves for the piston seals. Solutions are regular fluid changes, regular dismantling and scraping out white stuff from inside the groove or, and this is what I've done finally, change to silicone fluid and overhaul the entire system at that time. The system is now sweet and the brakes so progressive. Is the pedal hard? Could be better but it is OK.

    I reckon I'd rather have a drum braked one if those callipers are unique - it's been bad enough with the Renault ones (and you can buy remanufactured ones now, after a couple of decades of hoping....).

    There was a factory cut-away Panhard engine and transmission at Retromobile a few years ago (and yes I was there, and am still excited) and I remember how much I liked the quality of what I saw. I'd love one.

    Cheers

    We have just been to Mulhouse and seen various Panhard variants. I'd love one.
    JohnW

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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    When I bought my 24ct they were hard to get but spares were being advertised on Ebay; the Clubs had a reasonable selection and a couple of specialist suppliers had a good range. Today the ads for good cars are rare and the range of parts is shrinking. If you really want one, I wouldn't say its now or never but as the market dries up, so the prices go up.
    Keep a look out for my obituary. because I won't be selling.
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    When I bought my 24ct they were hard to get but spares were being advertised on Ebay; the Clubs had a reasonable selection and a couple of specialist suppliers had a good range. Today the ads for good cars are rare and the range of parts is shrinking. If you really want one, I wouldn't say its now or never but as the market dries up, so the prices go up.
    Keep a look out for my obituary. because I won't be selling.
    And so few of them in Australia.........................

    We'll be in France next May for the Renault Floride and Caravelle owners "Daisy Tour" in the Loire Valley I think. It would be nice to meet if time and place can work. We'll stay longer of course......

    Not so rare, but my 4CV and R8 Renaults are the same - wait for the obituary. We've owned them for so long they are part of the family (45 years for the 4CV and only 38 years for the R8).
    JohnW

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petitepoupée View Post
    Gawd! What an eye for detail! Glad I posted this - I've learnt, as a Panhard ignoramus, so much: so "CD" ain't Cd or Car Design ... rather, Charles Deutsch!
    I forgot to tell you of the Sizaire et N that we saw in Brussels recently in Autoworld. Main surprise was that it was smaller than I expected (but don't know why I expected it to be bigger) and great to see one at all. Forgive slight deviation from thread. Thanks so much for the DB photos - what gorgeous little cars he made!
    JohnW

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bertie View Post
    That is really so nice. BTW, are there any 24ct,s in this country?
    If only.................... I'd be interested if one were flushed out of the woodwork. Heaven knows what to sell though.
    JohnW

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  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! petitepoupée's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    I forgot to tell you of the Sizaire et N that we saw in Brussels recently in Autoworld. Main surprise was that it was smaller than I expected (but don't know why I expected it to be bigger) and great to see one at all. Forgive slight deviation from thread. Thanks so much for the DB photos - what gorgeous little cars he made!
    Let's not be to anally retentive about deviation - this is, after all, the "other than Citroen/Renault/Peugeot" section, so we can be allowed a bit of slack, I hope...

    Yes, the Brussels S-N .... we saw it in September just gone while we were there for the 2011 "Rallye Sizaire" : what I'd really like would be if our Sizaire was a tad lighter, if not a different size - it scales about 900kg, most of which I'd suggest seems to be incorporated in the oh-so-"clever" three speed gearbox/differential/back axle.
    In our two visits to France - 2007 and 2011, we have seen once on each occasion a Dyna Panhard in what was apparently "normal" road use by "ordinary" drivers (is that possible, I ask?). Unfortunately, on each occasion I was unable to take a photo, but below's what I'm pretty sure is the sort of thing I was looking at.
    Omigod, it must take a really dedicated enthusiast to keep one of these on the road!
    Long may it continue!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails For the Panhard diehards-dy_panhard.jpg  
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    And so few of them in Australia.........................

    We'll be in France next May for the Renault Floride and Caravelle owners "Daisy Tour" in the Loire Valley I think. It would be nice to meet if time and place can work. We'll stay longer of course......

    Not so rare, but my 4CV and R8 Renaults are the same - wait for the obituary. We've owned them for so long they are part of the family (45 years for the 4CV and only 38 years for the R8).
    Would be happy to meet. We are not going anywhere serious in May. let me know your itinerary. Andernos is on the coast just SE of Bordeaux.
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  21. #21
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    If only.................... I'd be interested if one were flushed out of the woodwork. Heaven knows what to sell though.
    There are several Panhard in Aus that are running but noone has contacted me to talk about a 24. Just for the record, if you start looking for one.
    There is the CT which comes in two versions - with drum brakes and a curved gear lever - the early model, the later one with conventional wheels, disc brakes and a straight gear lever. Then the BT which is slightly longer andwider to give a little more legroom at the rear. This was built to overcome market resistance to the CT for it lack of a usable rear seat. Citroën refused the money to retool the frame seriously and make a four door version so this compromise appeared. Wasn't worth the effort it still didn't lift sales. To answer other criticisms that it was too expensive for the market, they came op with the c version which has most of the bling removed and was cheaper. Citroën gave up at that point and shut the factory. To me, obviously as I have one, the preferred model is one of the early ones in which the Panhard soul still lingers on.
    You can get a tatty one for restoration at about 5K euros if you can find one. Concours restorations, think 20k +. The special bodied ones start at 100k. There is a single seater racer on sale at the moment for 10K but it can't be registered for use on the road.
    Beware of engine or gearbox work, it is beyond any normal garage or workshop, requiring special tools and measuring gear as well as a drawer full of shims of various diameters and thicknesses.
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  22. #22
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    Would be happy to meet. We are not going anywhere serious in May. let me know your itinerary. Andernos is on the coast just SE of Bordeaux.
    Yes, I knew you were down there. We once passed through Cognac, heading north. Close as we've been. I'll be in touch nearer the time!
    JohnW

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  23. #23
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    There are several Panhard in Aus that are running but noone has contacted me to talk about a 24. Just for the record, if you start looking for one.
    There is the CT which comes in two versions - with drum brakes and a curved gear lever - the early model, the later one with conventional wheels, disc brakes and a straight gear lever. Then the BT which is slightly longer andwider to give a little more legroom at the rear. This was built to overcome market resistance to the CT for it lack of a usable rear seat. Citroën refused the money to retool the frame seriously and make a four door version so this compromise appeared. Wasn't worth the effort it still didn't lift sales. To answer other criticisms that it was too expensive for the market, they came op with the c version which has most of the bling removed and was cheaper. Citroën gave up at that point and shut the factory. To me, obviously as I have one, the preferred model is one of the early ones in which the Panhard soul still lingers on.
    You can get a tatty one for restoration at about 5K euros if you can find one. Concours restorations, think 20k +. The special bodied ones start at 100k. There is a single seater racer on sale at the moment for 10K but it can't be registered for use on the road.
    Beware of engine or gearbox work, it is beyond any normal garage or workshop, requiring special tools and measuring gear as well as a drawer full of shims of various diameters and thicknesses.
    All hard, as expected! I looked at the mechanicals and decided immediately that working on it was beyond my skills! Lovely though. We saw a Dyna being driven at Mulhouse. Thanks for info.
    JohnW

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  24. #24
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Yes, I knew you were down there. We once passed through Cognac, heading north. Close as we've been. I'll be in touch nearer the time!
    That's about right, but we prefer Armagnac to Cognac.
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  25. #25
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    That's about right, but we prefer Armagnac to Cognac.
    Plenty to discuss then. I like Calvados.

    Back to topic - have you any idea how many Panhards are floating around?
    JohnW

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