The Talbot Arizona / Peugeot 309
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default The Talbot Arizona / Peugeot 309

    Having owned a 309 I've always been interested in its development story. Whilst it is well known that it was in development as the Chrsyler C28 project, to be later named the Talbot Arizona, I am still left slightly curious.

    How much of the engineering work was carried out by Simca/Chrsyler people? I know the suspension/chassis is all near identical to the 205 but it is interesting to note that even in the early '90s they still carried the old Simca OHV motors.

    Things like the petrol flap opening and cap are unlike other Peugeots of the time. I can't come to the conclusion of whether the Arizona is simply the UK designed body with total Peugeot design of everything else bar Simca engines or the design work was undertaken by Simca/Chrysler people using Peugeot technology.

    Also interesting is the original Horizon, from what I've read this wasn't really that bad of a car, at one point even using the PSA 1905cc XUD motor.

    Just as an aside, it's interesting to note that even in 1990, 405s, at least English assembled ones had the Talbot T on their windows.

    Who knows, maybe I'm the only person interested in the late '70s/early '80s Simca/Chrysler/Talbot-Peugeot era? Either way, a nice excuse to utilise the new forum.

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I'm sure someone will respond... just give it time.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    the talbot horizon was also rebadged as a pug 104

    the talbot name carried on for a little while with the tagora

    there is a bloke i keep in contact with that is very heavy into tagoras and is a wealth of information regarding talbots
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    the talbot horizon was also rebadged as a pug 104
    Could you elaborate? I thought the 104 was a Peugeot design, considering it was a lot smaller than the Horizon. The Talbot Samba was definitely a rebadged 104.

    The Tagora is definitely an interesting story. Just a pity it didn't look that hot. It didn't look bad but in my opinion just lacked slightly. The Peugeot rear suspension didn't quite suit the body and made the rear track look too narrow.

    But technically an interesting car with the PRV.

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    Yes, the Samba looks a lot more like the 104 than the Horizon does...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis
    Could you elaborate? I thought the 104 was a Peugeot design, considering it was a lot smaller than the Horizon. The Talbot Samba was definitely a rebadged 104.

    The Tagora is definitely an interesting story. Just a pity it didn't look that hot. It didn't look bad but in my opinion just lacked slightly. The Peugeot rear suspension didn't quite suit the body and made the rear track look too narrow.

    But technically an interesting car with the PRV.

    sorry you are right

    the samba became the 104 and the horizon became the 309

    the horizon started to inherit the pug motors hence the reason i messed up

    the tagora was a great thing and yes it does look strange but the SX was the car to have with it's triple throat webers

    another note was that the tagoras whether 4pot or V6 most of them had the BA10 box in them and only a handful of the 4 pots basically had the BA7 box
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    intresting to note that wether or not the design was simca inspired the samba design also went into the LN

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    Looking back on it, the Tagora certainly looked good in 1980 from certain angles especially in SX form.

    But catch it in low-spec form from the wrong angle and it doesn't work quite so well.

    163hp, would that make it the most powerful carb 2664cc PRV?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis
    Having owned a 309 I've always been interested in its development story. Whilst it is well known that it was in development as the Chrsyler C28 project, to be later named the Talbot Arizona, I am still left slightly curious.

    How much of the engineering work was carried out by Simca/Chrsyler people? I know the suspension/chassis is all near identical to the 205 but it is interesting to note that even in the early '90s they still carried the old Simca OHV motors.

    Things like the petrol flap opening and cap are unlike other Peugeots of the time. I can't come to the conclusion of whether the Arizona is simply the UK designed body with total Peugeot design of everything else bar Simca engines or the design work was undertaken by Simca/Chrysler people using Peugeot technology.

    Also interesting is the original Horizon, from what I've read this wasn't really that bad of a car, at one point even using the PSA 1905cc XUD motor.

    Just as an aside, it's interesting to note that even in 1990, 405s, at least English assembled ones had the Talbot T on their windows.

    Who knows, maybe I'm the only person interested in the late '70s/early '80s Simca/Chrysler/Talbot-Peugeot era? Either way, a nice excuse to utilise the new forum.

    My 205 ownwers handbook lists a J2/K engine (Talbot/Sunbeam/Simca derived?) this is 1592 cc and has more power and torque and better economy than the equivalent Peugeot engines. Any information regarding this?

    Graham

  10. #10
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    I don't think that engine was ever an option in the 309.

    There was the 1118cc and 1294cc Simca motors in the 309, with the 1294cc developing 64hp, I think it's fair to say these motors were well out of date by 1990. The 1580cc XU5 served in the 309, my SR had this motor.

    I see that there was a 1592cc Simca motor, stretched out from the original 1118cc motor. This made 88hp and served in the Alpine. But as far as it being used in the 309 I'm almost positive it didn't.

    Odd how it would be listed in the 205 manual as it didn't serve in the 205 either.

    We have 309s here that have the 1294cc Simca motor but I've never driven one. To be honest the thought of a 64hp pushrod motor driving the 309 doesn't sound particularly appealing, in my experience the 80hp XU5 suited the 309 very well. But I'm sure the 1294cc wouldn't have been too bad.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis
    Looking back on it, the Tagora certainly looked good in 1980 from certain angles especially in SX form.

    But catch it in low-spec form from the wrong angle and it doesn't work quite so well.

    163hp, would that make it the most powerful carb 2664cc PRV?

    the SX wasn't a bad looking car

    you can see little touches of 604 in them

    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  12. #12
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis
    I don't think that engine was ever an option in the 309.

    There was the 1118cc and 1294cc Simca motors in the 309, with the 1294cc developing 64hp, I think it's fair to say these motors were well out of date by 1990. The 1580cc XU5 served in the 309, my SR had this motor.

    I see that there was a 1592cc Simca motor, stretched out from the original 1118cc motor. This made 88hp and served in the Alpine. But as far as it being used in the 309 I'm almost positive it didn't.

    Odd how it would be listed in the 205 manual as it didn't serve in the 205 either.

    We have 309s here that have the 1294cc Simca motor but I've never driven one. To be honest the thought of a 64hp pushrod motor driving the 309 doesn't sound particularly appealing, in my experience the 80hp XU5 suited the 309 very well. But I'm sure the 1294cc wouldn't have been too bad.


    from what i have seen around the place they also commented on how the simca engines used in those cars had rattly valve trains and heads that needed to be retorqued

    this type of thing just wasn't accepted by the market and that ended them and the pug motors were used in place starting with the 1.6L

    i also saw somewhere mention of a VW unit bieng used as well
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  13. #13
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by pugrambo
    the SX wasn't a bad looking car

    you can see little touches of 604 in them

    The stud pattern and the headlights?

    What do you think of the Camira wheels?

  14. #14
    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
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    Hey,

    Not knowing much about Talbots, when were they last sold and why did they go out of business?

    Thanks heaps!

    Cyas Stalled
    2005 Renault Clio 182 Cup

    2011 Renault Megane 250 Cup Trophee - Sold

    1997 Peugeot 406 2.0 Manual - On Loan

    2004 Citroen C3 1.4 80th Anniversary (RIP)

  15. #15
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I think it's basically been covered, but to wrap it up... Chrysler sold out to Peugeot, who let the models run down after changing their name to Talbot. I guess the purpose was to keep what brand-loyal buyers there were and swing them gradually to Peugeot.

    1986 was the end of it... so it was about an eight year process.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    also the tagora wasn't marketed as well as the pug as it was in competition with the 604 and the CX at the time

    both these cars already filled the spots that PSA had in the market

    they also delayed the release of the tagora so they could modify it to use parts from the 604
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  17. #17
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    I think it's basically been covered, but to wrap it up... Chrysler sold out to Peugeot, who let the models run down after changing their name to Talbot. I guess the purpose was to keep what brand-loyal buyers there were and swing them gradually to Peugeot.

    1986 was the end of it... so it was about an eight year process.


    i know the tagora was stopped in 83

    i thought that was the last of the talbots so there was another model that kept going for a couple of years
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  18. #18
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I don't know what model was the last survivor, but the book says the finish was 1986...

    The range included Matra, by the way.

  19. #19
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    I don't know what model was the last survivor, but the book says the finish was 1986...

    The range included Matra, by the way.

    the matra was finished in 83 maybe early 84

    pity as it was a nice car

    does the book say what was still made up till 86
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  20. #20
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Seems that the fibreglass-bodied Murena (2.2 engine) was marketed up till (perhaps) 1983, then Matra went off under another ownership, becoming part of Renault.

    That seems to have stopped production in 1993... finally.

    And as you can see from my last post, I have no idea what model stopped last.

  21. #21
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i do know that the production line that made the matra was used to build the renault espace from 84 onwards hence the reason the matra was finished up in 83

    i didn't think they were produced elsewhere as everything i have been told about them that was the end of the matra line
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  22. #22
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    What I put is what's I thought I read in the book... but to be more informative, and to correct myself:

    In 1983, Matra left PSA and became part of Renault, where it was to develop the concept of the trend-setting Espace people-carrier, drawing on experience gained with the front-wheel-drive Rancho estates. The joint Matra-Renault Espace programme was set to continue until 1993, and includes a front-wheel-drive version called the Quadra.
    Which actually means I misread it... production was to continue beyond 1993. The book, however, is a 1992 print, so anything could have happened.

  23. #23
    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
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    Hey,

    Thanks Pugrambo and Ray Bell for the info!

    Cyas Stalled
    2005 Renault Clio 182 Cup

    2011 Renault Megane 250 Cup Trophee - Sold

    1997 Peugeot 406 2.0 Manual - On Loan

    2004 Citroen C3 1.4 80th Anniversary (RIP)

  24. #24
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    What I put is what's I thought I read in the book... but to be more informative, and to correct myself:



    Which actually means I misread it... production was to continue beyond 1993. The book, however, is a 1992 print, so anything could have happened.

    well that fits in with i was told, thanks for that

    so the matra finished in 83 and was used to become the espace from 84 onwards

    another point also worth remembering is that the anything made after september of the year becomes the next years model

    so with for example the matra finishing in 83 would have meant that sep 83 was the last but if anything made between sep and dec 83 would have then been 84
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  25. #25
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Only in America...

    There's nothing there to say that Matra wasn't still produced at all. I don't know if it was or not, that's unclear. When did the Ranchos grind to a halt, for instance? They could have been made until 1990.

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